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Tom, as always, we will just have to agree to disagree. You remind me of the Shepard's Rod guy that would picket the SDA church I grew up in. Just his ideas about truth. You still have never said who believes what you do, while I have sited scholars that believe as I do.
You are welcome to your view, but I can't believe that only you are the one getting it right!!!
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The question is not what anyone believes about the Gospel; but what Jesus teaches. It is very dangerous to judge the Gospel by the views of others.
In fact, the Jews judged Christ’s doctrine by the opinion of their religious leaders, who concluded he was wrong.
John 7:43 So a division occurred in the crowd because of Him.
John 7:44 Some of them wanted to seize Him, but no one laid hands on Him.
John 7:45 The officers then came to the chief priests and Pharisees, and they said to them, “Why did you not bring Him?”
John 7:46 The officers answered, “Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks.”
John 7:47 The Pharisees then answered them, “You have not also been led astray, have you?
John 7:48 “No one of the rulers or Pharisees has believed in Him, has he?
John 7:49 “But this crowd which does not know the Law is accursed.”
Those who look to their religious leaders or scholars for Gospel truth are making a fatal mistake, just like the Jews. Rather, all should study the Words of Christ for themselves. This is the secret to understanding the Gospel, as well as the 7th day Reformed Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 8:31-32 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Those who genuinely follow Christ, will understand his teaching and embrace his NC views. Those who are pretending will not understand the Gospel and be lost.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
The Gospel is not self-evident or intuitive. In fact, it is very difficult to understand. So much so that none of the 1st century religious leaders embraced it.
1Cor. 2:7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1Cor. 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
The same can be said for the Laodicean leaders in the 21st century. Few of them understand the Gospel, and thus they have been judged guilty, blind, and unsaved, even though they claim to follow Christ.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Those that are having a hard time comprehending the Gospel Sabbath, are in great danger. They need to keep searching for truth. To misunderstand the Lord’s Day is to misunderstand the Gospel. So the doctrine of the Reformed Sabbath it is a serious matter. Keeping trying to understand.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Luke 11:10 “For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Gospel Reform
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Sorry, Tom, like I said we will have to agree to disagree. I don't follow one person's interpretation. In the gospel's case at this time in earth's history, there is safety in numbers. I have seen your GOSPEL and it is "another gospel" in my opinion. I can't believe you are hoovering over the SDAs if you have such hatred for what they stand for.
Last edited by bob_2 (03-16-11 7:40 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Sorry, Tom, like I said we will have to agree to disagree.
Tom said: There should be no disagreement that one must go directly to Jesus, in the Gospels, to find salvation and to understand the Reformed Sabbath of Christ.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Those that think they must go to some other source to understand salvation and define the Reformed Sabbath of Christ are making a fatal mistake. Jesus is the head theologian of the Church. He is God’s apostle and the source for all that is good, true, and spiritually correct.
Acts 4:12 “there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Bob 2 said: I don't follow one person's interpretation.
Tom said: Jesus is the primary actor, witness, and authority for the Gospel. All that receive the gift of Eternal Life must embrace his doctrinal interpretations.
Reject his theology and teaching at the cost of your soul.
Only Christ’s views are salvific and fully correct. Refuse to believe what the Lord of the Sabbath teaches, and your fate is sealed in the wrong direction.
John 13:13 “You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.
All that profess to follow Christ, must listen to Christ, and follow his “interpretations” about doctrine, including his view of the New Covenant Sabbath. Period.
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 21:38 And all the people would get up early in the morning to come to Him in the temple to listen to Him.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
While the apostles support Jesus views in the rest of the NT, the teachings of Christ in the Gospels is the primary foundation for the Christian Faith. Those who refuse to embrace Jesus “interpretation” of Gospel doctrine will never enter the Kingdom of God. Sorry.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Bob 2 said: In the gospel's case at this time in earth's history, there is safety in numbers.
Tom said: Ha! This is the most absurd point you could possibly make, proving that you are not paying any attention to Christ or reality. Who today are faithfully following Christ and his Gospel? Which denomination has the correct view of the Sabbath?
Luke 18:8 “However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”
Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Where does the NT teach that legions understand the Gospel and that there is safety in following the confused leaders of the Laodicean church? Nowhere.
Rather, Jesus warns that many religious frauds will appear and misled many. So we must beware and be on the alert to make sure we are following the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
The Gospel has always had a very difficult time, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus own people rejected and killed him. Few found the Gospel in the first century, and thus it will also be in the last days. Only a minority will be saved. Only a few will understand the Gospel.
1Pet. 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
Rom. 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
Although the apostolic church had all manner of problems and heresies, and the dark ages were grim with error, the last church is the worst church. It has the most heresy and the most distorted and worthless Gospel in history.
This sounds illogical. The last church should be the best church, having the most spiritual wisdom and insight; but the opposite is the case.
Luke 17:28 “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Sodom was destroyed because God could not even find 10 righteous people. Underscoring how few will embrace the Gospel as the end of time. This is a sad but true pattern that is being repeated. Only a few will embrace the genuine Christ at the end of time.
Gen. 18:32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.”
So things get worse for the church and the Gospel as time goes on, not better. Few in Laodicea know or believe the genuine Gospel, or understand the Sabbath correctly. The organized churches, which includes the SDA’s, are so blind to the Gospel that they don’t even know they are wrong and unsaved. Only if Christ opens their eyes will they ever be able to see and be saved.
John 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
John 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”
Very few believed the Gospel in the 1st century, and so it has always been. Even though Rome eventually exchanged Paganism for the Christian Faith, they never understood the Gospel correctly, and thus the church has been preaching a compromised and wrong Gospel ever since.
In fact, things get so bad over time, that Jesus declares the last church to the worst of all eras. Even worse than the church of the dark ages! Thus very few in our day understand the Gospel, which is why all who profess to follow Christ at the end of time must first repent, and get serious about the Gospel teachings of Christ. Or they are lost.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
So where is this “safety in numbers”? The entire Laodicean Church has been judged guilty of false doctrine. The only question is how many will repent as directed by Christ and embrace the correct Gospel? This is the small group that all should want to be a part. There is only safety in following Christ, and his Gospel theology.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
John 5:34 “But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Bob 2 said: I have seen your GOSPEL and it is "another gospel" in my opinion.
Tom said: How can the blind judge the Gospel? Without healing from Christ, none will understand.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Luke 7:21 At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind.
Most that claim to “see” the Gospel are only defending their own personal delusions and errors.
However, those who repent of their views and seek the genuine teachings of Christ, including his Gospel Sabbath, will have their eyes opened to Eternal Life. Thus Jesus still gives sight to the blind today. But only to those that ask, beg, and plead for mercy. Those that think they see, do not ask to be healed, and thus they remain blind forever.
Luke 18:35 As Jesus was approaching Jericho, a blind man was sitting by the road begging.
Luke 18:36 Now hearing a crowd going by, he began to inquire what this was.
Luke 18:37 They told him that Jesus of Nazareth was passing by.
Luke 18:38 And he called out, saying, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”
Luke 18:39 Those who led the way were sternly telling him to be quiet; but he kept crying out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!”
Luke 18:40 And Jesus stopped and commanded that he be brought to Him; and when he came near, He questioned him,
Luke 18:41 “What do you want Me to do for you?” And he said, “Lord, I want to regain my sight!”
Those that want to understand the Gospel must first admit their blind and wretched condition. Then they must plead for God’s help to “see” and comprehend the Gospel. Do not let anyone keep you from confessing error and pleading for Gospel mercy.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
How can those who reject the teachings of Christ, including his Reformed Sabbath, claim to understand and embrace his Gospel? This makes no sense. They are blind, even though they claim to see. What will you say at the Judgment Day?
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
Bob 2 said: I can't believe you are hoovering over the SDA’s if you have such hatred for what they stand for.
Tom said: First, there is no “hatred” involved. Adventist Reform is meant to save the disoriented, corrupt, and self-destructing Advent Movement.
The SDA’s are not any worse, or better, than the rest of Laodicea. At the end of the church era, Christ condemns all denominations for false doctrine. All are wretched, blind and naked. Not just the SDA’s. All need help. I can best help the SDA’s because I am one of them. So I try and help because of Gospel duty, not hatred.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rsonal.htm
Second, the SDA’s have much truth for the Laodicean church. The Advent Movement was not only Protestant, but it was also PROPHETIC, and thus it has changed, for the better, the way eschatology was viewed by the entire church. Eschatology is a very important component of the Gospel, and the SDA’s were correct to promote this biblical emphasis.
Third, the SDA’s were also correct to understand that Sunday was a fraud and that only the 7th day could be the Lord’s Day. They were also correct to save the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages and teach that there was yet another great Gospel reformation to take place.
Fourth, the SDA’s, in spite of their many errors, are theologically positioned to repent of their many obvious errors, and develop the final Gospel message that precedes the Second Coming. This is not only the point of the Adventist Apocalyptic, but this is also the only way to save the Advent Movement.
The present time is a moment of great opportunity for Adventism. Too bad the SDA’s are not paying attention. Fear of the Apocalypse is on the rise, and people want to know how the world will end will, and what will be their fate?
This is the time for the Advent Movement to wake up, rise, and shine.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
It is time for the Adventist Community to admit their many errors and get serious about Gospel Eschatology. It is time for them to embrace their destiny of preparing the church for the Day of Judgment, and for the great Tribulation that will precede it.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (03-19-11 12:51 pm)
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Jerome Knight asked:
Tom, Given that:
1. The GC sacked Dr Ford and other
Pastors after Glacier View;
2. Dr Ford did not want to start a new church;
3. DARCOM 7 volume series upholds the traditional sanctuary doctrine;
4. Dr Ted Wilson, GC President is a traditionalist;
5. The GC and Ellen White Estate are inextricably linked;
6. Ellen White taught the traditional SDA sanctuary doctrine and eschatology:
Do you think:
A. Reform of the traditional sanctuary doctrine is possible within the SDA church? or
B. Should there be a new SDA church, which teaches the superior High Priestly ministry of Jesus Christ as stated in the Book of Hebrews?
Tom Norris answered: Not all of your assumptions are correct. #6 is wrong.
Ellen White does NOT support Traditional Adventism as advertised and promoted by the White Estate all these years. See links below:
Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
The Fraud of Traditional Adventism
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=235
For example, she never believed or taught that the IJ was the interpretation or the Judgment Pillar of Rev 14: 7, as the Takoma Park apologists teach. No one in Battle Creek ever took such an impossible view of eschatology. They all knew that the Judgment Pillar from Historic Adventism was only and forever the doctrine of the 2nd Coming.
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
This fact alone refutes Traditional Adventism as well as what was made official at Glacier View. Shame on the GC and the White Estate for promoting so much myth and historical error. They are being very dishonest about Ellen White and the Advent Cause.
However, your other points are correct. They underscore how difficult it is for the SDA leaders to honestly face up to the Gospel issues- and repent.
Unfortunately, the legalistic, Sabbatarian SDA’s are very much like the unbelieving Jews that killed Christ. While they claim to follow God and his Word, they are not doing any such thing, as they reject the Gospel and the teachings of Christ, only pretending to have correct doctrine.
Listen to Ellen White:
“The trials of the children of Israel, and their attitude just before the first coming of Christ, have been presented before me again and again to illustrate the position of the people of God in their experience before the second coming of Christ—how the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to blind the minds of God’s servants, that they may not be able to discern the precious truth." 1SM 406.
As for the fate of Adventist Reform?
Can the SDA leaders become honest and repent for 1888 and Glacier View? Yes. But will they?
It is unlikely that those so committed to false doctrine would ever admit error and risk losing their income as well as their standing in the hierarchical system that controls and sustains them. Consequently, the SDA leaders are committed to pluralism, censorship, and much propaganda. They no longer care about Gospel truth.
The SDA’s think like the Jews, and they too realized that they had to stop Gospel Reform within their Community. Why? Because it empowered the people to ignore their many false doctrines, including their authority, even as it would leave them unemployed with no tithe income, and no longer in control.
John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
John 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,
John 11:50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.”
Human nature is the same as it was in the days of Christ and thus the first century religious leaders acted against Jesus because of their own self-interest. The SDA leaders are very much like the Jews that also refused to repent, admit their mistakes, and embrace the Gospel.
See Ellen White’s description (below) of how Uriah Smith and the Traditionalists acted during the 1888 Gospel debates. Nothing has changed over the years. The SDA’s are still great Judaizers as Glacier View shows. The leaders still misunderstand and repudiate the Gospel.
"There are some who, like the Jews, are doing their utmost to make the message of God of none effect. Let these doubting, questioning ones either receive the light of the truth for this time, or let them stand out of the way, that others may have an opportunity of receiving the truth, that the wrath of God may not come on them because they are bodies of darkness, when He desires them to be bodies of light.”
"Those who live just prior to the second appearing of Christ may expect a large measure of His Holy Spirit. If God has ever spoken by me, some of our leading men are going over the same ground of refusing the message of mercy as the Jews did in the time of Christ. If they turn away from the light, they will fail to meet the high and holy claims of God for this important time. They will fail to fulfill the sacred responsibility that He has entrusted to them.”
"The character and prospects of the people of God are similar to those of the Jews, who could not enter in because of unbelief. Self-sufficiency, self-importance, and spiritual pride separated them from God, and He hid His face from them. . . .”
"The Jews despised the good that was proffered them in the time of Christ, and after the long forbearance of God, the things that were for their peace were hidden from their eyes—that which, if received, would have been to them their greatest blessing became their stumbling block. Thus it is today among us. . . .”
"The light of truth is shining upon us as clearly as it shone upon the Jewish people, but the hearts of men are as hard and unimpressible as in the days of Christ, because they know not what they oppose. Many who claim to be standing in the light are in darkness, and know it not. They have so enshrouded themselves in unbelief that they call darkness light, and light darkness. They are ignorant of that which they condemn and oppose.”
“But their ignorance is not such as God will excuse, for He has given them light, and they reject it. They have before them the example of the past, but they will not be warned, and unbelief is enclosing them in impenetrable darkness. They refuse to accept the testimonies they ought to believe, and are ready to accept tidbits of gossip and testimonies of men, showing their credulousness and readiness to believe that which they want to believe."
Ellen White11MR 286-287.
Although the SDA leaders, like the Jews they emulate, refuse to embrace Gospel Reform, the Adventist Community is another matter.
In fact, many millions have already repudiated the IJ have left the church. Which is why there are far more former SDA’s missing from church every Sabbath than those who are there, which explains why the church in NA is unable to grow.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … church.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ndance.htm
The majority of Adventists do not support the errors of Traditional Adventism. But they have had no viable alternative, no place to go; at least not until Adventist Reform came along, articulating a credible path forward.
12-Point Summary of Adventist Reform
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Reform.htm
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1222173098
Regardless what the Old Covenant minded leaders say or do, the Adventist Community is free to repudiate them and their many false doctrines. They are free to stop supporting these wolves with the false doctrine of tithe, and move forward to embrace New Covenant Adventism. This is no doubt what many will do when given the opportunity.
It is time for New Covenant Adventism to become organized, functional, and focused. It is time for a new Adventist organization to emerge, one that is based on the Gospel and the New Covenant teachings of Christ, as well as the truths contained in the Three Angels Messages.
It is time for the Advent Community to move forward from the failed and legalistic 3rd Angels Message to the Gospel based, Loud Cry of the 4th Angels Message in Rev 18. Here is where the Sabbath doctrine will become Gospel Friendly and doctrinally correct, even as contemporary eschatology will become credible, as it is properly understood.
The Advent Movement is not bound or defined by what the confused and dishonest SDA’s do or teach. Adventism has a life and mission of its’ own; it is a special work that will continue to unfold and go forward with or without the SDA’s. If they refuse to repent and go forward, others will replace them.
Luke 19:40 But Jesus answered, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!”
For those that seek the new wine of Gospel Truth, it is time to correct that past errors and to focus on contemporary eschatology, preparing the church for the Great Tribulation and the 2nd Coming. Thus new wineskins are needed for new wine, and a re-organization of Adventism is inevitable.
Luke 5:37 “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
If the Advent Movement is from God, then it will continue to unfold and develop, going forward to meet its Gospel destiny, regardless of the faithless SDA’s.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom said
Those that think they must go to some other source to understand salvation and define the Reformed Sabbath of Christ are making a fatal mistake.
That is a pretty arrogant statement. You have the answer and everyone that disagrees with you on debatable issues will die. That is what you meant by "a fatal mistake"? Tom another question, why can I get a point across to you in a few sentences and you have to use linear feet to get yours across. Again show me someone that can define "Reformed Sabbath". Your case is still weak and have not shown other scholars that agree. I find your position silly when Christ is the Rest, by his ability to forgive sin. That is the Gospel without the added on "Reformed" anything. The Gospel plus nothing!!!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (05-11-11 11:40 pm)
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Responding to Tom #80.
Ellen G. White obviously did teach traditional SDA-ism, this is evident from just a brief perusal of her works as cited for example in the Comprehensive Index to the Writings of Ellen G. White, I've got the 1962 edition: Take a look under:
Judgment (1) Investigative (prior to 1000 years) - Index, pp.1460-61, e.g.: in Great Controversy, chapter 28 - Facing Life's Record, pp. 479-91;
Sanctuary (heavenly) - Index, pp. 2355, e.g.: GC, pp. 324-29;
Sanctuary (heavenly) - 2. Most holy place of - Index, pp. 2356-58, e.g.: GC, 479-91.
She also claimed to have visions supporting these traditional SDA Doctrines - see under Index, p. 2361, e.g.: Early Writings, pp. 32-3, 42-3, 86 & Life Sketches 100-4, 116.
However around the time of A. Ballenger (1905), Ellen White began to write in the Signs of the Times, of 19 April 1905, suggesting that Christ entered the Most Holy Place at his ascension (the true NT teaching, although she did not reply to Ballenger's pleading questions - Ballenger was not right about a OT heavenly sanctuary ministry), see Desmond Ford, Daniel 8:14, the Day of Atonement and the Investigative Judgment (1980), pp. 1, 35-42, 45, 97(note 20), 347, 393.
It is mainly because Ellen White in 1847 endorsed Owen Crozier's 2 apartment heavenly sanctuary teaching (which he later repudiated) that the SDA church now finds it very difficult to admit she and they are wrong about this (the Book of Hebrews does not teach such a thing) and we have been in this doctrinal mess for over a hundred years.
Ellen G. White did not claim to be a prophetess nor infallibility (Selected Messages, 1:31-37). She pointed people to the Bible as the Greater Light. We need to let her writings RIP and do our own thorough study of the Bible.
However, I agree that the church needs to become more Gospel focused, fully accept justification-righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ and his Holy Spirit (Rom. 3:21-26; Titus 3:4-7). And we desparately need to reform the traditional heavenly sanctuary doctrine and bring it in line with what the Book of Hebrews and the rest of the New Testament actually teaches. We also need to reform our historicist eschatology and make it more Biblical, exegetically and historically accurate.
Let those of us who know a bit of Hebrew and Greek carefully study the Books of Daniel, Hebrews and Revelation in their original languages, or at least study what Biblical scholars have written on them. Then we need to write out the true teachings and present it as the alternative. This is our challenge today.
Last edited by J. Knight (05-13-11 5:06 am)
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Bob 2 said: Sorry, Tom, like I said we will have to agree to disagree. I don't follow one person's interpretation. In the gospel's case at this time in earth's history, there is safety in numbers. I have seen your GOSPEL and it is "another gospel" in my opinion.
Tom said: I embrace the Gospel of the NT. The one with the Reformed Lord’s Day. Which is why you are wasting your time with your confused, no-Sabbath brand of religion.
Regardless of how one views any doctrine, there should be no disagreement that one must go directly to Jesus, in the Gospels, to find salvation and to understand the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Jesus is the most authoritative theologian and teacher in the church. His words count more than all others combined.
Bob2 then said: That is a pretty arrogant statement. You have the answer and everyone that disagrees with you on debatable issues will die. That is what you meant by "a fatal mistake"?
Tom said: Jesus has the doctrinal answers about the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath.
Jesus, and his Father are the final authority for all doctrine. Thus, there is no safety in many interpretations as you claim. If that were the case, then the Sunday Lord’s Day must be correct, because it has the most support. There is only safety in following the Words of Christ in the NT. I would think anyone that claims to follow Jesus would know that?
So when it comes to the doctrine of the Sabbath, (or any doctrine), there is great danger in trying to follow the crowd. Those that are serious about Eternal Life will only follow the clear teachings of Jesus, the Lord of the Reformed 7th Day Sabbath.
Bob2 asked: Tom another question, why can I get a point across to you in a few sentences and you have to use linear feet to get yours across. Again show me someone that can define "Reformed Sabbath".
Tom said: It is so much easier to destroy than to develop and build. Thus it is easy to come up with all manner of useless points and irresponsible suggestions to save Adventism that can be easily conveyed. But the destruction of the Three Angels Messages is not a real option to save the Advent Movement. Neither is claiming that the 3rd Angels Message, with its emphasis on the 7th day Sabbath, should be destroyed.
Your point that there is no weekly Sabbath for the church has been rejected over and over again in this discussion about Adventist Reform.
Moreover, there has been no such doctrine in the history of the church and there is not going to be. This “no Sabbath” view is too impractical and self-destructive. A church cannot exist if they don’t meet on a regular basis. And there are only two options where most of the people can even do such a thing, Saturday or Sunday.
In fact, all those churches that embrace this so called NCT, “no-Sabbath” view, meet once a week on Sunday, every Sunday, even as they call it the Lord’s Day. This is how the church raises the money to exist, even as this weekly fellowship and preaching is what defines the church. To give up this weekly tradition is suicide for the church, which is why no denomination has ever done it.
So you are promoting a phantom doctrine that is so impractical as to not ever be practiced by any church. So your point is wrong, silly, and worthless. Sorry.
The Gospel is not easy to understand. It is very difficult because there is so much myth and error associated with the Christian Faith. Unless people can understand how to read the NT correctly and stop embracing their many false traditions as if they were true, they will never understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath for the church, or eschatology or anything else.
Bob2 said: Your case is still weak and have not shown other scholars that agree.
Tom said: It is not “my case.” I am not the author of the Gospel Sabbath, or its Lord. Jesus has made a case for the reformed, 7th day, active Sabbath, in all four Gospels. The Jews rejected his views and killed him for them. But I think he is correct and thus I will follow his doctrine on this matter and so too should you.
The Gospel Sabbath is not a weak doctrine. Rather, it has clear support in all four Gospels from Jesus himself, as well as from the rest of the NT.
Those who cannot understand this Gospel doctrine are the problem. They are spiritually weak, unable to read the Words of Jesus with understanding.
Bob2 said: I find your position silly when Christ is the Rest, by his ability to forgive sin. That is the Gospel without the added on "Reformed" anything. The Gospel plus nothing!!!!!
Tom said: No church or denomination in the world has ever embraced this idea that there is no weekly Sabbath for the church. So who is being “silly?” You are the one calling billions of Christians fools for thinking there is a weekly Sabbath, when you say there is no such doctrine. Are you sure that everyone else is wrong and you are correct?
Those that find the Gospel teachings of Christ “silly” will not be receiving Eternal Life. For them, there is no forgiveness of sin or salvation. They are following a false Christ and a manipulated Gospel Story that will not save them. Sorry.
I hope that one day you can come to the place where you can repent of this no Sabbath nonsense.
J Knight said: Ellen G. White obviously did teach traditional SDA-ism, this is evident from just a brief perusal of her works as cited for example in the Comprehensive Index to the Writings of Ellen G. White, I've got the 1962 edition:
Tom said: Nice to see you here Jerome! Welcome!
As you can see, there is a lot of info on this site about Ellen White and church history. I hope you take the time to make yourself familiar with what has already been posted.
You can also go to All Experts and get more info:
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
As for the question about Ellen White and her support of Traditional Adventism, it is not as simple as it seems. There are a number of points that define “Traditional Adventism” and when closely examined, Ellen White does NOT support what many claim or think she supports.
For example, most everyone assumes that Ellen White is a great supporter of the IJ as a fundamental pillar of Adventist eschatology. This is what the Takoma Park apologists taught and what Glacier View made official, and this view is still promoted today.
But is it true? No. Ellen White NEVER viewed the IJ as the Judgment Pillar in the Three Angels Messages. It never happened, but yet most all think otherwise, even as the church today still teaches this utter fiction and false church history.
So this is a good example of what I mean when I say that Ellen White does not support Traditional Adventism. The White Estate has been so dishonest and incompetent that they have been teaching legions of errors as if it were true. Much of what they say is not true, and it is time that the SDA Community wakes up and understands the facts.
I could list more doctrines where Ellen White’s views are not being honestly conveyed to the church. Such as the law and Galatians. While Ellen White did embrace a legalistic and wrong view of the law and the Gospel, she CHANGED positions after 1888, but the church leaders not only rejected her changed views, but they exiled her and then covered this all up so that no one in the 20th century knew that Ellen White had rejected the Traditional, SDA view of the law and the Gospel.
There are more doctrines where Ellen White’s mature and true views have been suppressed and hidden from the church. Her position on hermeneutics and tithe do not line up with the teachings of Traditional Adventism, and neither does her views of the nature of Christ.
So the real, mature Ellen White of history does not support TA, much less what was made official at Glacier View. However, few people know this surprising fact, unless they have been reading the discussions about Adventist Reform online.
Jerome said: Take a look under: Judgment (1) Investigative (prior to 1000 years) - Index, pp.1460-61, e.g.: in Great Controversy, chapter 28 - Facing Life's Record, pp. 479-91; Sanctuary (heavenly) - Index, pp. 2355, e.g.: GC, pp. 324-29; Sanctuary (heavenly) - 2. Most holy place of - Index, pp. 2356-58, e.g.: GC, 479-91. She also claimed to have visions supporting these traditional SDA Doctrines - see under Index, p. 2361, e.g.: Early Writings, pp. 32-3, 42-3, 86 & Life Sketches 100-4, 116.
Tom said: I have read all there is to read on this topic. The facts still remain; there was never a time when any 19th century SDA taught that the Rev 14: 7 was interpreted to mean the IJ. It never happened until the 20th century, when the White Estate made this false point in order to defeat those that understood the Protestant Gospel correctly.
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST57830
We have all been deceived by the White Estate about many things, including the way Ellen White viewed the IJ and the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message.
Here are some links:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=235
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1023044579
Jerome said: However around the time of A. Ballenger (1905), Ellen White began to write in the Signs of the Times, of 19 April 1905, suggesting that Christ entered the Most Holy Place at his ascension (the true NT teaching, although she did not reply to Ballenger's pleading questions - Ballenger was not right about a OT heavenly sanctuary ministry), see Desmond Ford, Daniel 8:14, the Day of Atonement and the Investigative Judgment (1980), pp. 1, 35-42, 45, 97(note 20), 347, 393.
Tom said: The White Estate has pretended that Ellen White never changed her doctrinal views. But she did so many times over the years, much to the chagrin of the leaders. In fact, the 1888 debates featured a major change in how Ellen White viewed the law and the Gospel, as well as the Two Covenants. But the 20th century leaders covered up this debate and hid the facts from the public, even as they claimed Ellen White made no changes in her theology.
After 1888, Ellen White also refused to support the SDA doctrine of tithe. We know this because she was confronted by a conference President who was not happy about this discovery. Ellen White has a problem with tithe and she never changed her mind.
But of course, the leaders have tried to cover up this fact, even as they teach tithing has the full support of Ellen White and the NT, when it has neither.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239
So the SDA’s are great deceivers. They have lied so often about Ellen White and church history over the years, that few even know what is true and what is myth anymore. Nor do the leaders care to find the difference. It is a horrible situation that should not be tolerated.
Jerome said: It is mainly because Ellen White in 1847 endorsed Owen Crozier's 2 apartment heavenly sanctuary teaching (which he later repudiated) that the SDA church now finds it very difficult to admit she and they are wrong about this (the Book of Hebrews does not teach such a thing) and we have been in this doctrinal mess for over a hundred years.
Tom said: The Pre Advent Judgment has a long history in the SDA church. At first it was only an innocent doctrine that made some sense because it explained the delay of the 2nd Coming for those that claimed the 2,300 day prophecy was correct. Thus the doctrine called “The Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary” was not anything legalistic until it morphed into the IJ in 1857, and later in the 1870’s.
The problem with the modern SDA’s is that they became too defensive when they moved to Takoma Park. They had so many critics back in Battle Creek, that they felt compelled to fight back by manipulating Ellen White’s writings and revising church history as needed.
As the 20th century wore on, the Takoma Park apologist’s handcrafted a manipulated storyline in such a manner as to defeat their enemies and grow the church. The problem was, Arthur White’s version of “Traditional Adventism” was not only wrong, but it was not supported by the mature, post 1888 Ellen White.
Which explains why so much of Ellen White’s post 1888 writings had been hidden from the church in the White Estate. They were hidden so that the church leaders could revise history to make things look better, and make Ellen White say what the modern leaders wanted her to say.
This fraud worked for a while, until this manufactured story started to fall apart. Then there was great debate during the decade of the 1970’s about Ellen White’s view of the Gospel. However, with thousands of Ellen White documents still hidden from the church, the leaders foolishly decided to convict Dr. Ford of heresy for rejecting Ellen White and the Foundational Pillars from Historic Adventism.
But the problem was not with Dr. Ford’s views, but with the leaders, who assumed that the Traditional view from the White Estate was accurate when it was false and wrong. Dr. Ford was correct to teach that there is no such “pillar” as the IJ in the Three Angels Messages and Ellen White never said otherwise. Her view is the same as Dr. Ford’s. But who had time to check the facts back in 1980?
Dr. Ford was exiled for telling the truth about the IJ and the Three Angels Messages, as well as about Ellen White’s post 1888 view of the Gospel, which he supports. The leaders were wrong about how they viewed the Gospel and the IJ, as well as what they claimed about Ellen White.
Ellen White NEVER embraced the IJ as a “pillar” and the White Estate has acted in a despicable, illegal, and incompetent manner all these years in saying otherwise. They are either the world’s greatest liars, or the world’s most incompetent publishers. No doubt some of both.
So here is the real Achilles heel of the SDA’s. They have been so dishonest about Ellen White and their doctrinal development, that they have lost their bearings. Unless they become honest and repent of their false views, they are doomed.
The modern SDA’s are pathological liars, spinning out their history the way that best defeats their critics. This is not the way of the Gospel. Dishonesty cannot be the foundation for any denomination that claims to follow Christ, and the SDA’s should be ashamed of themselves for being so cultic and dishonest. The Pioneers would not be pleased.
Unless they tell the truth about 1888 and repent for the fraud in the White Estate, and the fraud of Traditional Adventism, and repent for Glacier View, they are doomed to continue their free fall into irrelevance and self-destruction. The Jews did the same thing, so it should not be considered strange.
Jerome said: Ellen G. White did not claim to be a prophetess nor infallibility (Selected Messages, 1:31-37). She pointed people to the Bible as the Greater Light. We need to let her writings RIP and do our own thorough study of the Bible.
Tom said: I agree. The record in the White Estate must be corrected. The present view of Ellen White from the White Estate is very wrong. The White Estate has been very dishonest and misleading about Ellen White’s life and views, and this betrayal of her by the church leaders will not stand. The record in the White Estate must be corrected.
Jerome said: However, I agree that the church needs to become more Gospel focused, fully accept justification-righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ and his Holy Spirit (Rom. 3:21-26; Titus 3:4-7).
Tom said: Agreed. There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath. At some point, the Advent Movement will understand such spiritual matters.
Jerome said: And we desperately need to reform the traditional heavenly sanctuary doctrine and bring it in line with what the Book of Hebrews and the rest of the New Testament actually teaches.
Tom said: Agreed. The Pre-Advent Judgment has been a very difficult and elusive doctrine to understand. But guess what? It has finally been solved. The PAJ is not Dan 8: 14, but rather Rev 3: 14.
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1154462379
Jerome said: We also need to reform our historicist eschatology and make it more Biblical, exegetically and historically accurate.
Tom said: Agreed. Sunday laws will not start the Time of Trouble as the SDA’s teach. Thus it is time for 19th century eschatology to be brought up to the standards of the 21st century.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=768
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1045379969
Jerome said: Let those of us who know a bit of Hebrew and Greek carefully study the Books of Daniel, Hebrews and Revelation in their original languages, or at least study what Biblical scholars have written on them. Then we need to write out the true teachings and present it as the alternative. This is our challenge today.
Tom said: Dr. Ford, as a scholar, has already made the case against the IJ. It has no support from the Hebrew or the Greek language, or from the history of the Jews. Nor is the IJ a pillar from Historic Adventism as many have been incorrectly taught. And Ellen White never said otherwise.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -FAITH.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ed-EGW.htm
So the Adventist Community needs to move on, properly understanding the 7 pillars that are contained in the Three Angels Messages, and then moving forward to the 4th and final message that precedes the end of the world.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=769
In conclusion, Adventist Reform is the roadmap for 21st century Adventism. The 12- point needs to be understood, embraced, and implemented by the SDA Community;
12- point Summary of Adventist Reform
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Reform.htm
Judging from your comments, I am putting you down as a supporter of Adventist Reform. Good for you!
Tom Norris
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Tom, your accusations are false. Take this for instance:
Neither is claiming that the 3rd Angels Message, with its emphasis on the 7th day Sabbath, should be destroyed.
God's commandments are mentioned but not those given to the Jews. You may worship on Saturday or Wednesday, but Col 2: 16-17, and 2 Cor 3: 7 speak of a change you choose not to recognize. You can not show that Christ did anything other than clarify the way He meant the Jews to keep the Sabbath given uniquely to them. Read
Matthew 12 :6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
In fact read all of Matthew 6 to see Christ's rebuke of His accusers. You have not shown how the Sabbath was reformed with a command from Christ or His apostles in the New Covenant. Until you see the disconnect from 1st to the 2nd Covenant, you will continue to claim something that does not exist, you Reformed Sabbath. How about other scholars that believe this?
Read these scholars about NCT:
Douglas Moo, D.A. Carson , Tom Wells, Tom Nettles, Jon Reisinger, Tom Owens, F. F, Kevan, Fred Zaspel and F.F. Bruce. Do a Google search with their name and New Covenant Theology.
Last edited by bob_2 (05-16-11 3:32 pm)
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Bob2 said: Tom, your accusations are false.
Tom said: What accusations?
Bob2 said: Take this for instance. “Neither is claiming that the 3rd Angels Message, with its emphasis on the 7th day Sabbath, should be destroyed.”
Tom said: Why do you quote something so out of context? And why are you unable to deal with the issues?
Bob2 asked: Tom another question, why can I get a point across to you in a few sentences and you have to use linear feet to get yours across? Again show me someone that can define "Reformed Sabbath"?
Tom said: First off, you need to go to Jesus, in the four Gospels and read what he teaches about the Gospel Sabbath. He is the primary source for this REFORMED Sabbath for the church. His words and actions define the doctrine of the Sabbath for the New Covenant Church, regardless what anyone else says.
Second, it is so much easier to mismanage and destroy than to develop and build. Thus it is easy to come up with all manner of useless points and irresponsible suggestions to address the present demise of Adventism.
But the destruction of the Three Angels Messages is not a real option to save the Advent Movement. Neither is claiming that the 3rd Angels Message, with its emphasis on the 7th day Sabbath, should be destroyed.
Your point that there is no weekly Sabbath for the church has been rejected over and over again in this discussion about Adventist Reform.
Moreover, there has been never been such a no Sabbath doctrine in the history of the church and there is not going to be. This “no Sabbath” view is too impractical and self-destructive. A church cannot exist if they don’t meet on a regular basis. And there are only two options where most of the people can even do such a thing, Saturday or Sunday.
In fact, all those churches that embrace this so called NCT, “no-Sabbath” view, meet once a week on Sunday, every Sunday, even as they call it the Lord’s Day. This is how the church raises money, even as this weekly fellowship and preaching is what defines the church. To give up this weekly tradition is suicide for the church, which is why no denomination has ever done it.
So you are promoting a phantom doctrine that is so impractical as to not ever be practiced by any church. So your point is wrong, silly, and worthless. Sorry.
Bob2 said: God's commandments are mentioned but not those given to the Jews.
Tom said: The God of the OT is the God of the Jews. He is the God that invented the Jews and made them his special people so that the Messiah could save the world through the Gospel. When Jesus claims that the God of the Jews instructed him about the Reformed Sabbath, we must listen.
Bob2 said: You may worship on Saturday or Wednesday, but Col 2: 16-17, and 2 Cor 3: 7 speak of a change you choose not to recognize.
Tom said: While all are free to worship on any day of the week, there is only one day that can be considered a special day for the church. The fact that the church has the day wrong, is beside the point. The church has always had a Sabbath/Lord’s day every week, and so it does today.
Until you admit there is a Sabbath doctrine for the church, you will not be able to help Adventism move forward and finally resolve this debate. Declaring there is no Sabbath is hardly a solution to the Sabbath debate.
But the Reformed Gospel Sabbath is the end of the matter. The Sabbath of the 4th Angels Message has been found. Let the Adventist Community pay attention.
Bob2 said: You cannot show that Christ did anything other than clarify the way He meant the Jews to keep the Sabbath given uniquely to them.
Tom said: Since when does “no work” mean “work”?
You misunderstand both the law and the Gospels if you think there is no difference between the OC and NC doctrines of the Sabbath. While they are on the same day, there has been a major change. In fact, Jesus turned traditional, OC Sabbath keeping upside down. How? By declaring that all who follow him were Priests of God; thus excused from the 10 Commandment Law against working on the Sabbath.
Of course the Jewish leaders rejected this idea in horror, which later became known as the “priesthood of all believers.” The Jews also rejected Jesus insistence that working on the Sabbath is in fact what God the Father instructed him to teach.
Faced with such apparent blasphemy from a religious peasant upstart, it is hardly surprising that the Jewish elites plotted to kill Jesus. They were trying to protect their OC system and laws, which supported them. They had no intention of dissolving the Levitical Priesthood or handing the keys of the Temple over to Christ, with his strange, NC ideas.
Jesus radical Sabbath teaching is for the church. Thus there is an OC Sabbath and a NC version. Both are on the 7th day, but only the former prohibits work.
So the Reformed Sabbath is more than a “clarification,” rather, it is a very different way to view the 7th day Sabbath. Thus, the New Covenant Sabbath is very different from the OC doctrine, even as it is built upon it. But who in Laodicea even knows about it?
Bob2 said: You have not shown how the Sabbath was reformed with a command from Christ or His apostles in the New Covenant.
Tom said: Jesus teaches an active, “working” Sabbath. The Jews taught a passive, punitive, “non-working” Sabbath where it was sinful to do a long list of things, including making fires, cooking, or healing.
Jesus Gospel teaching represented a new and very different way to view the Sabbath. It was so radical and different that the Jews were stunned and outraged. This is why they killed Jesus.
Bob2 said: Until you see the disconnect from 1st to the 2nd Covenant, you will continue to claim something that does not exist, your Reformed Sabbath. How about other scholars that believe this?
Tom said: Most all scholars believe in a weekly Lord’s Day/ Sabbath for the church. Those who think there is no such doctrine are very few.
There is a Gospel Sabbath for the church, and the genuine doctrine will be a shock for many scholars, as well as a test of their honesty and competence. Dr. Ford has already passed the test. He is the leading Sabbatarian scholar in the world. He supports the 7th day reformed Sabbath. You need to read more Dr. Ford.
Bob2 said: Read these scholars about NCT: Douglas Moo, D.A. Carson, Tom Wells, Tom Nettles, Jon Reisinger, Tom Owens, F. F, Kevan and F.F. Bruce. Do a Google search with their name and New Covenant Theology.
Tom said: Remember the last time you wanted me to read some of your favorite scholars? We discovered that Reisinger disagreed with Sproul over the Sabbath, and that the promoters of this so-called NCT are just flaming anti-Sabbatarians. This is their agenda and their anti-Gospel goal.
See: The Reformed Sabbath; post #231 and #230
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … d=228&p=10
I repeat again, the head theologian of the church is Jesus. It is his writings that determine the doctrine of the Lord’s Day for the church.
Those who claim to follow Christ, must do so in all things, including his Reformed, 7th day Sabbath. A doctrine that upholds the Priesthood of All Believers, even as it elevates Jesus and his Semitic Gospel above the Law for all to see.
So Bob, rather than fight against any and all Sabbath doctrines in the church, why not try to find the correct Gospel view? There is a Sabbath for the church, and the articulation of this true Gospel doctrine will start a reformation with those in Laodicea that are honestly seeking truth.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
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Tom said:
Those that find the Gospel teachings of Christ “silly” will not be receiving Eternal Life. For them, there is no forgiveness of sin or salvation. They are following a false Christ and a manipulated Gospel Story that will not save them. Sorry.
All because of a day. Show your proof as I have asked before, and scholars that can back you up. All I get is silence or the preaching of Another Gospel!!!
There is nothing wrong with a group of believers choosing a worship day, but you have it as a condition of Salvation, which gets you to ANOTHER GOSPEL.
2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit
Last edited by bob_2 (05-17-11 1:20 pm)
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J. Knight wrote:
Ellen G. White did not claim to be a prophetess nor infallibility (Selected Messages, 1:31-37). She pointed people to the Bible as the Greater Light. We need to let her writings RIP and do our own thorough study of the Bible.
Right, she claimed to be more than a prophet. Why did she sell books for if she wanted her flock to read the scriptures as "greater Light". Why do we need the "lesser light" when we have the pure unadulterated light? Can we even see the lesser light when the greatest light is shining?
However, I agree that the church needs to become more Gospel focused, fully accept justification-righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ and his Holy Spirit (Rom. 3:21-26; Titus 3:4-7). And we desparately need to reform the traditional heavenly sanctuary doctrine and bring it in line with what the Book of Hebrews and the rest of the New Testament actually teaches. We also need to reform our historicist eschatology and make it more Biblical, exegetically and historically accurate.
Why not pitch the whole mess and start over with the pure simple gospel. Why drag the Old Covenant Israelite only Sabbath into the picture? Why the Jewish Sabbath that cannot be kept, that pointed back to Egypt and creation, when we have the Creator and His rest offered to us every day?
Let those of us who know a bit of Hebrew and Greek carefully study the Books of Daniel, Hebrews and Revelation in their original languages, or at least study what Biblical scholars have written on them. Then we need to write out the true teachings and present it as the alternative. This is our challenge today.
Let those of us that have an understanding of the Gospels, plan of Salvation, and the writings of Paul continue to study and give those truths to the World.
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Hello Bob
Yes, EGW claimed to be more than a prophet but called herself God's Messager - not sure what exactly she meant by this but I think she might have seen herself as proclaiming Jesus' 2nd Advent, just as John the Baptist proclaimed Jesus' 1st Arrival - see Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1a, which refers to John the Baptist, whom Christ called the Greatest Prophet (Matthew 11:1-11).
I don't know why she wrote those books when we have the Bible as the Greater Light. If we have the Greater Light we don't really need the lesser light.
I partly agree, pitch what is wrong but keep what is right. Yes, start with the Gospel (simple but not so simple, when you get into the nature of Christ, our sinful nature, when do we overcome sin - before or at the 2nd Advent...etc?).
The Old Testament covenant with all its laws is dead (Hebrews 8:13); we no longer have to keep the letter of the law but we are called to live the Spirit of the law (2 Cor. 3:1-6).
Jesus did not come to abolish the law but fulfil it (Matt. 5:17). His death put an end to the OT law keeping for righteousness (Deut. 6:25; Rom. 10:4). Righteousness is now by faith alone in Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21-26). But Jesus' resurrection and the Holy Spirit must now fulfill the law in our lives (Rom. 8:1-4ff). We must still wait for the Holy Spirit's gift of righteousness and his Fruit in our lives (Gal. 5:5, 22-23). God's law must be written on our hearts and minds under the new covenant by the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 8:7-12; 10:15-17).
We are supposed to obey God out of love; the greatest commandment of all (Matthew 22:37-40; John 14:15).
The Ten Commandments are still valid according to Matthew 19:16-19; 1 John 5:3; Revelation 14:12. The 7th Day Sabbath rest is still binding in the NT Covenant according to Hebrews 4:1-10; the Sabbath is a symbol of the eternal rest that God wants to give us: rest from sin and death in his new creation. Jesus broke the Jewish rules and regulations about Sabbath keeping, by saying it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath, to heal and save lives (Matt. 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). As Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man's benefit and not the other way around (Mark 2:27-28). The Sabbath is supposed to be a restful, liberating Holy Day to be enjoyed not restricted (only God can control his Holy Spirit and someone born again by the Spirit - John 3:8).
Notice, that those saved in the end (both Jews and Gentiles grafted into Israel - Romans 11:25) - will be keeping the 7th Day Sabbath in the New Earth (Isaiah 66:22-23; Rev. 7-1-10; 21:1-2, 23-24).
Jesus' death and resurrection has changed both the way and the means by which we are supposed to obey God's will - by His Holy Spirit living in us and not by our own failing efforts to keep the old letter of the law.
God's Holy Spirit must be so very grieved because hardly anyone in the churches ever speaks about Him! Yet he is just as vitally important to our salvation as God the Father and God the Son - see Titus 3:4-7: God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are all working together for our salvation! The Holy Spirit is also involved in our justification as well as our sanctification, just as Christ both justifies and sanctifies us!
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Tom said: Those that find the Gospel teachings of Christ “silly” will not be receiving Eternal Life. For them, there is no forgiveness of sin or salvation. They are following a false Christ and a manipulated Gospel Story that will not save them. Sorry.
Bob2 said: All because of a day.
Tom said: No. It’s not about a day, but about the authority of Christ to declare what is true Gospel doctrine. You act as if Adventist Reform is promoting the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the tithe paying, IJ loving, legalistic SDA’s. But that is not the case.
The Gospel Sabbath is not about the law, as much as it is about the freedom from the guilt of the law. Jesus teaches that one can do all manner of work on the Gospel Sabbath and yet, -be innocent of sinning. Thus the NC Sabbath is a living lesson about the Gospel. While we break the law on a regular basis, we are innocent nonetheless.
So it’s not about a day. Rather, it’s all about the Gospel teachings of Christ. The law of Christ. His words are golden, and so too his doctrines.
If Christ teaches we must stand on our heads, every day at noon, then that is what we must do. We don’t get to argue or debate doctrine with Jesus. This is what the Jews did, but it was their ruin. No one in the church had better follow their evil behavior. Jesus teaches, we listen and learn.
The Gospel is not up for debate. We either embrace Jesus and his teachings, or we do not. Those that do not;- will not be given Eternal Life. Don’t blame me; I have nothing to do with such Gospel rules.
Bob 2 said: Show your proof as I have asked before, and scholars that can back you up. All I get is silence or the preaching of Another Gospel!!!
Tom said: It was the unbelievers that asked for signs. But Jesus would not indulge their phony questions. He knew they had no intention to believe no matter what he said or did. Even as he knew that few if any scholars supported his new and strange views.
Those that ask for signs have no intention to repent of their false views and believe, even when the evidence they seek is right in front of their faces.
Mark 8:11 The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him.
Mark 8:12 Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”
For those that fail to read and understand the clear Gospel teachings of Christ, no “sign” will help them. The very words of Jesus are hidden from their minds; their unbelief prevents Gospel comprehension. This will spell doom for all in such a state, because it is by the teachings of Jesus that all Christians will be judged.
Just think of the opportunity that awaits you. At the Judgment you will be able to stand up and argue with Christ; instructing him about your “no Sabbath” views. You explain that certain scholars convinced you that the Law is no longer binding, and because Jesus is our rest, the Sabbath has been abolished and everyone should be free to select their own day of worship, blah, blah, blah…
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
But such “no Sabbath” talk only condemns you, proving that you did not pay attention to the teachings of Jesus. Thus the words of Christ stand against you, not for you, and they condemn you.
Luke 13:25 “Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’
Luke 13:26 “Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’;
Luke 13:27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’
Luke 13:28 “In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.
Those who play fast and loose with the teachings of Christ, as the SDA’s all do, are playing a losing game. No one is going to fool heaven or Christ the Judge. Everyone has a chance to deal honestly with the teachings of Christ and follow him. But many are blind and choose to ignore or deny his Words and repudiate his Gospel teaching with ease. Many also make up their own doctrines, like tithe or the IJ, while some happily do away with the Reformed Sabbath for the church, declaring it null and void. Truly the Gospel is hidden from the blind and naked Laodiceans.
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
Luke 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
Luke 19:42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
Those that reject the Sabbath teachings of Christ, will remain in darkness and delusion. They will not understand the Gospel, nor obtain Eternal Life. The very words of Christ in the Gospels will be used to convict all that reject his teachings and sayings.
John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
I repeat, those today that reject Jesus’ doctrine of the reformed Sabbath, (that he claimed came from God the Father), and refuse to embrace his working, active, 7th day Sabbath, will not pass the Judgment. They have proven themselves unwilling to follow Jesus Gospel teaching about the Lord’s Day and other points. They remain unsaved.
Eternal Life is for those that follow Jesus and accept his Gospel “sayings.” To follow Jesus is to follow his controversial, counter-intuitive, Gospel Sabbath. This is one way to know if one is a genuine Christian, or just another uncomprehending Laodicean pretender.
Today, people pay more attention to the local weatherman then the teachings of Jesus.
Matt. 16:3 Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christ’s and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Those that look for the wrong signs will quickly become lost. So too those that quote the writings of Paul in order to refute the teachings of Jesus. Paul does not teach or instruct Christ, nor does he refute his Gospel Sabbath in any way. Shame on anyone for trying to divide the apostles.
Bob2 said: There is nothing wrong with a group of believers choosing a worship day, but you have it as a condition of Salvation, which gets you to ANOTHER GOSPEL.
Tom said: Jesus defines Gospel doctrine. If you don’t like the Sabbath teachings of Christ, don’t follow them!
Make up your own doctrines and do what you want. This is what most everyone is doing anyway, so go ahead and join the Laodicean crowd. As you say, safety in numbers.
But don’t think your rejection of Jesus Reformed Sabbath will get you into the Kingdom of God. It will have the opposite effect. Why? Because those who embrace a false Sabbath, also embrace a false Gospel and follow a false Christ. No Eternal Life for those so foolish as to follow a fraud. Sorry.
There is something very wrong with any Christian that thinks they can make up their own Gospel doctrine. No one in the church gets to invent any doctrine, much less about the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment.
Only Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and head theologian of the church, has authority to reform, reinvent, and define the Sabbath. Even as he has all authority to declare it terminated. But he never teaches a terminated Sabbath, or a Sunday Sabbath, or even a non-working 7th day Sabbath. So who has any authority to make such things up?
Those that acknowledge Jesus Gospel authority and read his Words correctly, will also embrace his NC Sabbath teaching. Period. They will understand the Gospel and receive Eternal Life, while the pretenders go to hell.
Bob2 said: Why not pitch the whole mess and start over with the pure simple gospel. Why drag the Old Covenant Israelite only Sabbath into the picture? Why the Jewish Sabbath that cannot be kept, that pointed back to Egypt and creation, when we have the Creator and His rest offered to us every day?
Tom said: The Gospel is a Jewish doctrine, even as the NC is built on the OC. Thus the OT is part of the story, history and context of the church. Without Judaism there would be no Gospel or church. Without the OC, there could be no NC.
It is too late to try and change history. We must deal with the facts as they are, not as we want them to be.
The object of Gospel Reform in the last days is to recover the “pure and simple Gospel.” Part of this doctrinal recovery is about the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. This is Gospel truth for the church, just as it was for the 1st century Jews. It is not an "add on," but a critical part of the Gospel teaching of Christ. Which is why it is featured in all four Gospels.
Those that misunderstand the law and the Gospel, will naturally embrace a false view of the Sabbath and many other errors.
Today, no church or denomination teaches the Gospel correctly, which is why not one of them embraces the correct doctrine of the Sabbath. Not even the SDA’s, and not even those few that claim there is no Sabbath for the church.
Those that are paying attention to the Words of Jesus, as opposed to the double-talking scholars and apologists, will understand the Gospel and the NC Sabbath correctly. They will understand what is truth and repent for embracing so many false and foolish doctrines, such as tithe, the IJ, or OC Sabbath keeping, either on Sunday or the 7th day.
This is why the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church demands zealous and dramatic repentance. Why? Because the church, meaning all denominations, has been horribly wrong about most everything, the Sabbath being the most visible, glaring, and repeated error.
The way one views the Gospel is revealed by their view of the Sabbath. A false Gospel is accompanied by a false doctrine of the Sabbath, and so too the genuine Gospel with the correct Lord’s Day.
All of Laodicea has embraced a false Gospel and a false Sabbath. Thus all are doomed unless they repent and move forward into the Gospel Light.
It is time for the Advent Movement to wake up, repent, and embrace meaningful Gospel reform, including the surprising and (seemingly) new doctrine of the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. It is a game changer!
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
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The Old Testament covenant with all its laws is dead (Hebrews 8:13); we no longer have to keep the letter of the law but we are called to live the Spirit of the law (2 Cor. 3:1-6).
We are to live by the Spirit period. The verses quoted do not say "of the law". 2Cor goes on to tell us that the 10 Commandments are not our guide, the Holy Spirit is. Paul calls the 10 "the ministry of death".
Jesus did not come to abolish the law but fulfil it (Matt. 5:17). His death put an end to the OT law keeping for righteousness (Deut. 6:25; Rom. 10:4). Righteousness is now by faith alone in Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21-26). But Jesus' resurrection and the Holy Spirit must now fulfill the law in our lives (Rom. 8:1-4ff). We must still wait for the Holy Spirit's gift of righteousness and his Fruit in our lives (Gal. 5:5, 22-23). God's law must be written on our hearts and minds under the new covenant by the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 8:7-12; 10:15-17).
Why is it Adventists stop at verse 17 when the complete thought ends at verse 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled". Jesus fulfilled the complete Torah at the Cross. We, according to Paul, are not under any of that law including the ministry of death (10 Commandments). Please explain just what law is written on our hearts. We read in 2 Cor 3 that the Holy Spirit replaces the 10, so just what law is written there. Heb 8 tells us the New Covenant is not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; ....
We are supposed to obey God out of love; the greatest commandment of all (Matthew 22:37-40; John 14:15).
And love our fellow man as Jesus loves us. Could it be that in place of the faulty 10 the Holy Spirit writes on our hearts the law of love? I, at least, have the desire to love my fellow man. I don't have any desire to observe the old covenant, for the Israelites only, Sabbath. It was the SDA Church that persuaded me to observe it. I do not see hordes of Christians who have been blessed with the indwelling of the Spirit breaking the walls down trying to get in the SDA Church or any other old covenant Sabbath observing church.
The Ten Commandments are still valid according to Matthew 19:16-19;
Could it be that they were still valid at that time because Jesus had not yet given Himself a ransom for mankind and the new covenant needed His blood to be ratified? Would what you wrote disqualify Paul and make him a liar concerning the 10?
1 John 5:3; Revelation 14:12.
Is Jesus God? Did He not give us far superior commandments when He gave us the Royal law of love? Could it be that John, in both instances, was referring to this law and not the Torah?
The 7th Day Sabbath rest is still binding in the NT Covenant according to Hebrews 4:1-10;
Heb 4 is not referring to the old covenant weekly Sabbath of the Israelites only. It is referring to "today". Today we can find our rest and that rest is Jesus. The Israelites had the Sabbath yet they never entered into God's Rest. This passage tells us and them that we can still enter the rest God has for us. That rest again is Jesus. Come to me all you that are heavy laden and I will give you rest. That rest is available today. Praise the Lord!
the Sabbath is a symbol of the eternal rest that God wants to give us: rest from sin and death in his new creation. Jesus broke the Jewish rules and regulations about Sabbath keeping, by saying it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath, to heal and save lives (Matt. 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). As Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man's benefit and not the other way around (Mark 2:27-28). The Sabbath is supposed to be a restful, liberating Holy Day to be enjoyed not restricted (only God can control his Holy Spirit and someone born again by the Spirit - John 3:8).
Jesus is the eternal rest. I thought Jesus kept the whole law perfectly. Now you are telling me He broke the law, which is it? They were not "Jewish rules" they were the Torah. Jesus did not break Torah law. He may have broken Jewish law. It was always lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
May I add that what it was supposed to be and what SDAs make it are two different things. SDAs do not "keep" the Sabbath. I would venture to say that every single trier breaks it every single week.
When He indicated that the Sabbath was made for man He was addressing the Jews. Had the Jews taken that Jesus was referring to the Gentiles they would have torn Him apart. Gentiles were not permitted to observe the ritual Jewish Sabbath unless they converted and became circumcised.
Notice, that those saved in the end (both Jews and Gentiles grafted into Israel - Romans 11:25)
I have heard for years that Christians will be grafted into Israel, but Romans 11 does not say this. Jews come to Jesus the same as Gentiles. When we all accept Jesus we are all grafted into the tree, but the tree is certainly not Israel. Israelites are not grafted into Israel. They broke their covenant. Abraham on the other hand was counted righteous because of his faith. Because of my faith in Jesus I too am grafted into the same tree that Abraham was grafted into, Jesus.
- will be keeping the 7th Day Sabbath in the New Earth (Isaiah 66:22-23; Rev. 7-1-10; 21:1-2, 23-24).
Hmmm! have you read Isaiah chapter 65-66? Are you sure it is the same place that we will go after this life? Will we take a Sabbath walk around with the dead and their worms? Will we be observing new moon Sabbaths? SDAs use Isaiah 65-66 without thinking what all that means. It is a proof text that doesn't bear fruit. Here is the same thought from chapter 65:
17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
Could this be the New Earth we will be going to ?
Jesus' death and resurrection has changed both the way and the means by which we are supposed to obey God's will - by His Holy Spirit living in us and not by our own failing efforts to keep the old letter of the law.
But you would have us still observing the old covenant ritual Sabbath and trying to pull ourselves up by our own boot straps, trying to "keep" bits of Torah law.
God's Holy Spirit must be so very grieved because hardly anyone in the churches ever speaks about Him! Yet he is just as vitally important to our salvation as God the Father and God the Son - see Titus 3:4-7: God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are all working together for our salvation! The Holy Spirit is also involved in our justification as well as our sanctification, just as Christ both justifies and sanctifies us!
Speak for your own church, the one I attend give the Spirit Glory in all things, too bad yours doesn't. SDAs on the other hand gives the glory to their prophet Ellen.
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Thanks Bob, for wading through all that. I have pointed the same points out but the SDA church is so invested in the Seventh-Day, that they can not let the Bible speak for itself. It's sort of like, what if the Sabbath was necessary to keep, I'm ahead, you lose. That was given as a reason for keeping Sabbath on the Seventh Day by someone over at Club Adventist, my response was:
Gal 1: 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
The "just in case" gospel can get you a curse!!! Also notice the Gospel was given to Paul in the desert, where he was for 3 years. It was God given, not OT given:
Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
This is not a repetition of what Paul already knew!!!! The nuances, and the mystery of the Gospel was revealed to Paul, and he never said God or Jesus commanded a Reformed Sabbath. Never. Notice that he went to the desert to receive the Gospel before going to Peter or other Jews in Jerusalem.
Last edited by bob_2 (05-19-11 11:53 pm)
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In response to Bob #90.
You are right when you say the texts don’t say the letter of the law – explicitly, but it is implied. When Paul contrasts the letter and the Spirit as in 2 Cor. 3:6, he is thinking about the law. Romans 7:6 says: “But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.”
2 Cor. 3 does not explicitly mention the 10 Commandments but they are implied by the words “tablets of stone.” But notice the tablets of stone become tablets of flesh, of the heart. The Spirit is to write what was on the tablets of stone upon our hearts. This is also suggested under the new covenant in Hebrews 8:7-13 and 10:15-18. The word covenant means the 10 Commandments. Exodus 34:28 states: “So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Jesus’ blood of the new covenant was shed to affirm the 10 Commandments (Mark 14:22-26); the Spirit gives us life under the new covenant which still includes the 10 Commandments (2 Cor. 3:4-6). The 10 Commandments are therefore still valid under the ministry of God’s Holy Spirit.
The 1st Commandment speaks about God’s Deliverance (Ex. 20:1-2). The 2nd Commandment includes God’s Mercy (Ex. 20:3-6). Jesus dying on the cross became the Mercy Seat – Atonement for our sins (Rom. 3:25). God’s character and his salvation are embedded in his Commandments and his laws.
Matt. 5:17-18 is saying that not a single letter stroke from the law will pass away until all is fulfilled. Romans 8:3 states that we weak humans could not do the law but God did when he sent his Son Jesus Christ; he fulfilled God’s law in his life and death. But it also goes on to say in 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Back in 8:2 it is speaking about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which makes us free from the law of sin and death. Paul is giving a higher spiritual dimension to the law in Christ which saves us from sin and death. I agree when you say it is God’s royal law of love but I would add salvation. This law of God’s love and salvation is still to be fulfilled in us. Paul is difficult to understand (2 Peter 3:14-16) but he does not lie.
In his letters, Paul spent a lot of time and energy arguing against the Jews who tried by their own efforts to make themselves right with God by their law keeping, rather than by faith in Jesus Christ. But he was not totally arguing against the law. In Romans 3:31, Paul said faith establishes the law rather than empties it. In Romans 7:12 he says the law and the commandment are holy, just and good. Paul says that the purpose of the law is to tell us what sin is and condemn us (Romans 3:20; 7:7); but its other purpose is to lead us to Christ for our justification by faith (Galatians 3:24). The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is now operating (Rom. 8:2).
Justification is a legal term involving acquittal, the not guilty verdict and being counted innocent before God, because Jesus Christ lived perfectly, died for our sins and gives us his righteousness – which we receive by faith, through the Holy Spirit by grace (Titus 3:4-7). The Holy Spirit gift of practical righteousness in our lives is also something we must wait on God for; “We through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith,” Galatians 5:5. John saw the practical application of righteousness in the believer’s live when he said, “If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of him,” 1 John 2:29.
Hebrews 4 clearly speaks about the 7th Day Sabbath in verse 4 and 10, “For he has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: And God rested on the seventh day from all His works.” Referring back to Creation (Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:11). Verse 5 goes on to speak about a different rest in God’s Promise Land (quoting Psalm 95:8-11 which ancient Israel could not enter because of disobedience). David’s “Today” in Heb. 4:7 quotes from Psalm 95:7-8, which is in the Sabbath Day Psalms section (Psalm 92-106). Heb. 4:9 says there remains therefore a rest for God’s people. Verse 10, “For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.” Again, it is referring back to the very first 7th Day Sabbath at the beginning of this world (Gen. 2:1-3). Verse 11 says, “Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.”
Yes, Jesus is rest (Matt. 11:28) but he’s also Lord of the Sabbath Day rest (Mark 2:28). Jesus did not say the Sabbath was made for “you” when addressing the Jews of his generation. He used the generic term “man” meaning the whole of human kind. It was the same as when God said to his Son; let us make “man” in our own image (Gen.1:26).
The first Gentile Christians following Paul met to hear him teach on the 7th Day Sabbath and not any other day in Acts 13:42-44; 16:11-13; 17:1-4. The change from Sabbath to Sunday came later.
I did not say Jesus broke the Torah. I said Jesus broke the Sabbath rules and regulations of the Jews; by this I was referring to the traditions of the elders, which they added to the Torah in their attempts to protect it. Those traditions of the elders later became rabbinical laws that the orthodox and ultra orthodox Jews still hold today. This is how they made the Sabbath and God’s laws a burden, by adding volumes of laws to those God gave in the Bible.
God became Jesus Christ in the flesh to save us from sin. John 1:1, 14, 29.
In Romans 11:13, 17 Paul is calling the Gentile (Christians) the wild olive tree. But the olive tree that God planted was Israel and Judah, see Jeremiah 11:16-17. But eventually, all will be saved through Israel, because the Deliverer, Saviour was an Israeli, Jew - Jesus Christ (Rom. 11:26-27). It is in another sense that Jesus is the Vine and his disciples are his branches (John 15:1-8). Entrance into the New Jerusalem is through the 12 Tribes of Israel and the City is based upon the 12 Apostles of Jesus (Rev. 21:1-2, 10-14). Isaiah 66:22-23 says that those saved in the New Heaven and New Earth will worship God each New Month and on the Sabbath.
Isaiah 65:17-25 is the same New Heavens and New Earth. Verse 20 is really saying that babies will no longer die and people will live fulfilled lives there. The part about the child dying at 100 years is a poetic paradox, used in parallel with the overriding point that babies will no longer die! Put it another way, if someone lives to be 100 years old they are no longer a child to die at 100 years. And sinners will no longer exist after God’s final judgment (Rev. 20:7-15). No one is going to die in God’s new creation; this is clear from 1 Cor. 15:50-58, where the believer’s mortal body will be changed and become immortal. This is at the 2nd Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 4:16-18).
I am not talking about the old covenant Sabbath, nor righteousness by works.
I believe Jesus and his Holy Spirit wants to give us a completely new experience of living by faith in his gift of salvation.
Last edited by J. Knight (05-22-11 12:24 am)
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Thank you for your well thought out response J. I am, as you can tell, not a theologian. I started to question SDA doctrine after serving in the church for 40 years. Sabbath observance was the last tenet I gave study to and as you have read in my post I no longer consider it a necessity to observe for salvation. SDAs vary on the subject, but the SDA prophet's writings do not leave any leeway as to its place in the salvation plan. The Bible tells us that the Sabbath was for the Israelites period. It was never "kept" and to this day the results are the same. SDA cue as to how to observe it comes from the prophet's understanding. Since I mistrust her completely and there is no formula in the New Covenant as how to observe it it would seem that one who was interested would have to go back to the for the Israelites only Old Covenant to glean as to how to keep it holy. The dilemma for SDAs is that the Prophet has given her blessing that the book of the law has been nailed to the Cross and is no longer a source for Christian observance. Well, not completely nailed, SDAs go to the book of the law for their modified tithing system and unclean meat laws, but beside those laws I don't think they observe any other one that I am immediately aware. You have made it plain that the Sabbath quoted in Isaiah 66 is the continuation of the Israelite Sabbath and is a "proof text" for observing it now, but you fail to do the same for New Moon Sabbaths. This to me is a dilemma also.
At any rate you have been able to formulate debate with my answers to your previous post and now I will once again try to give you my response.
In response to Bob #90.
You are right when you say the texts don’t say the letter of the law – explicitly, but it is implied. When Paul contrasts the letter and the Spirit as in 2 Cor. 3:6, he is thinking about the law. Romans 7:6 says: “But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.”
I on the other hand do not assume anything. I mention this because we are to add nothing nor take away anything. We could change the meaning of the thought and not get the point conveyed. This is a good standard we both should use when debating.
2 Cor. 3 does not explicitly mention the 10 Commandments but they are implied by the words “tablets of stone.” But notice the tablets of stone become tablets of flesh, of the heart. The Spirit is to write what was on the tablets of stone upon our hearts. This is also suggested under the new covenant in Hebrews 8:7-13 and 10:15-18. The word covenant means the 10 Commandments. Exodus 34:28 states: “So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Jesus’ blood of the new covenant was shed to affirm the 10 Commandments (Mark 14:22-26); the Spirit gives us life under the new covenant which still includes the 10 Commandments (2 Cor. 3:4-6). The 10 Commandments are therefore still valid under the ministry of God’s Holy Spirit.
I dispute Your thought that the Holy Spirit writes the 10 Commandments on our hearts. Where do you find that in Scripture?
There is a real problem with SDAs and that is where they see "commandments" or "law" they automatically see "10" even if it is not there or implied. Yes, when we see the word covenant as in Old Covenant it does mean the 10 and it also means all the remainder of law, 603 of them.
I see you have interpreted that those same words of the stone tablets are are the ones on our hearts. Read it again, 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
You are telling me that the same written statements are written on our hearts? The ministry that brought death, the ministry that faded and is no longer glorious is written on our hearts? No wonder so many Christians are cold, legalistic and heartless. I believe that John in 1 Jn 3 gives us part of the answer of what is written on our hearts. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
The 1st Commandment speaks about God’s Deliverance (Ex. 20:1-2). The 2nd Commandment includes God’s Mercy (Ex. 20:3-6). Jesus dying on the cross became the Mercy Seat – Atonement for our sins (Rom. 3:25). God’s character and his salvation are embedded in his Commandments and his laws.
The 10 Commandments are not God's character. That is not Biblical. It comes from none other than the SDA prophet. The 10 are an incomplete set of standards as noted by Jesus in Matt 5 21-48. Even "his laws" were modified by Jesus. Also, if you study, you will find another untrue statement from SDAs and that is the 10 are our love for God and our fellow man. The law of Love encompasses much more than the incomplete 10 do. In fact the 10 are about duty not love. If we were able to "keep" the 10 we could do it without ever loving our fellow man. Israel had a duty to God and man.
Matt. 5:17-18 is saying that not a single letter stroke from the law will pass away until all is fulfilled. Romans 8:3 states that we weak humans could not do the law but God did when he sent his Son Jesus Christ; he fulfilled God’s law in his life and death. But it also goes on to say in 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Back in 8:2 it is speaking about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which makes us free from the law of sin and death. Paul is giving a higher spiritual dimension to the law in Christ which saves us from sin and death. I agree when you say it is God’s royal law of love but I would add salvation. This law of God’s love and salvation is still to be fulfilled in us. Paul is difficult to understand (2 Peter 3:14-16) but he does not lie.
What is your enlightenment concerning what the law is/was? I believe it was the 613 laws given only to Israel. If I am correct and Jesus is the fulfillment then He said at the fulfillment they would pass away. I believe the word "until" is the clincher. The law passed at Calvary, even the prophet admits to part of the law being completed then, and Paul in Gal 3 recognizes this fact. That law contained the Sabbath. Again, I say that Christians are under the law found in 1 JN 3
In his letters, Paul spent a lot of time and energy arguing against the Jews who tried by their own efforts to make themselves right with God by their law keeping, rather than by faith in Jesus Christ. But he was not totally arguing against the law. In Romans 3:31, Paul said faith establishes the law rather than empties it. In Romans 7:12 he says the law and the commandment are holy, just and good. Paul says that the purpose of the law is to tell us what sin is and condemn us (Romans 3:20; 7:7); but its other purpose is to lead us to Christ for our justification by faith (Galatians 3:24). The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is now operating (Rom. 8:2).
No he was not arguing totally against the law. He said it remains as a schoolmaster to lead man to Christ as you said.
The law was holy just and good, but man couldn't live by them without falling short. They became the downfall of the Israelites. Gal 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
Justification is a legal term involving acquittal, the not guilty verdict and being counted innocent before God, because Jesus Christ lived perfectly, died for our sins and gives us his righteousness – which we receive by faith, through the Holy Spirit by grace (Titus 3:4-7). The Holy Spirit gift of practical righteousness in our lives is also something we must wait on God for; “We through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith,” Galatians 5:5. John saw the practical application of righteousness in the believer’s live when he said, “If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of him,” 1 John 2:29.
Hebrews 4 clearly speaks about the 7th Day Sabbath in verse 4 and 10, “For he has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: And God rested on the seventh day from all His works.” Referring back to Creation (Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:11). Verse 5 goes on to speak about a different rest in God’s Promise Land (quoting Psalm 95:8-11 which ancient Israel could not enter because of disobedience). David’s “Today” in Heb. 4:7 quotes from Psalm 95:7-8, which is in the Sabbath Day Psalms section (Psalm 92-106). Heb. 4:9 says there remains therefore a rest for God’s people. Verse 10, “For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.” Again, it is referring back to the very first 7th Day Sabbath at the beginning of this world (Gen. 2:1-3). Verse 11 says, “Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.”
Yes it does speak of the 7th day and because it does SDAs try to make it say it is relevant for Christians. It never indicates this and those who understand this have shot holes in yet another "proof text". In verse 9 it tells us that there remains a Sabbath-rest, sabbatismos not sabbaton which means the Israelite Sabbath or Sabbaths. Verse 10 says for anyone who enters God's Rest also rests from his own work, Just as God did from his. Notice it doesn't say that Adam rested. Only God rested, He was the one who had done the work. Jesus has invited to enter into His rest. Today we can enter. Everyday we can enter because everyday is today.
Matthew 11:28
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Yes, Jesus is rest (Matt. 11:28) but he’s also Lord of the Sabbath Day rest (Mark 2:28). Jesus did not say the Sabbath was made for “you” when addressing the Jews of his generation. He used the generic term “man” meaning the whole of human kind. It was the same as when God said to his Son; let us make “man” in our own image (Gen.1:26).
Some more proof texts. I agree He was Lord of the Sabbath. That does not mean that He didn't, at the Cross, claim it void for His children. You say where He said it was made for man that it means all mankind. Why didn't He ever ask Gentiles to observe it? Why no instructions for the unlearned. Jesus came as the grand fulfillment of it and all the law.. People were not made for the Sabbath the Sabbath was given to people (Israelite people). This statement of His has nothing to do whether we are bound to it or any other part of the old law.
The first Gentile Christians following Paul met to hear him teach on the 7th Day Sabbath and not any other day in Acts 13:42-44; 16:11-13; 17:1-4. The change from Sabbath to Sunday came later.
Where else could he get a crowd? It doesn't say he was observing it, it just tells us he taught on that day. Absolutely no proof that he was teaching anyone to observe it. Nice try though. Please show me where he didn't teach on "any other day".
I did not say Jesus broke the Torah. I said Jesus broke the Sabbath rules and regulations of the Jews; by this I was referring to the traditions of the elders, which they added to the Torah in their attempts to protect it. Those traditions of the elders later became rabbinical laws that the orthodox and ultra orthodox Jews still hold today. This is how they made the Sabbath and God’s laws a burden, by adding volumes of laws to those God gave in the Bible.
Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I apologize. Jesus could have broken and technically He did by working on the Sabbath. Both He and the Father worked on the Sabbath. That was their prerogative because they were Lord of the Sabbath and above rules to the Israelites.
God became Jesus Christ in the flesh to save us from sin. John 1:1, 14, 29.
In Romans 11:13, 17 Paul is calling the Gentile (Christians) the wild olive tree. But the olive tree that God planted was Israel and Judah, see Jeremiah 11:16-17. But eventually, all will be saved through Israel, because the Deliverer, Saviour was an Israeli, Jew - Jesus Christ (Rom. 11:26-27). It is in another sense that Jesus is the Vine and his disciples are his branches (John 15:1-8). Entrance into the New Jerusalem is through the 12 Tribes of Israel and the City is based upon the 12 Apostles of Jesus (Rev. 21:1-2, 10-14). Isaiah 66:22-23 says that those saved in the New Heaven and New Earth will worship God each New Month and on the Sabbath.
WOW! what a ssstttretch. You had to look hard to find Jeremiah 11:16-17 and then try to squeeze it to fit Rom 11. Israel never did anything to be worthy of being the tree. Jesus came forth in spite of the mess they made of their lives and land. Any thinking person knows that Jesus is the tree and all people who accept Him as Savior are grafted into the tree. Jew and Gentile alike.
Isaiah 65:17-25 is the same New Heavens and New Earth. Verse 20 is really saying that babies will no longer die and people will live fulfilled lives there. The part about the child dying at 100 years is a poetic paradox, used in parallel with the overriding point that babies will no longer die! Put it another way, if someone lives to be 100 years old they are no longer a child to die at 100 years. And sinners will no longer exist after God’s final judgment (Rev. 20:7-15). No one is going to die in God’s new creation; this is clear from 1 Cor. 15:50-58, where the believer’s mortal body will be changed and become immortal. This is at the 2nd Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 4:16-18).
No, verse 20 is not saying that. You are changing the meaning. It says the child will die 100 years old. Is "poetic paradox" anything like practical adaptation? :-).
You are right, no one will die in the Earth made new that is why the writer is not talking about the same New Earth as we are looking forward to going
I am not talking about the old covenant Sabbath, nor righteousness by works.
What other kind of weekly Sabbath is there?
I believe Jesus and his Holy Spirit wants to give us a completely new experience of living by faith in his gift of salvation.
Amen
Last edited by J. Knight (Today 4:24 am)
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I am a former SDA. I cannot believe they are still going so strong with these distractions from the REAL Gospel. I do not attend any of our modern-day churches anymore. I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination and won't be until I have been "changed in the twinkling of an eye" at the second coming of our wonderful Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ; yet I have the awesome love of Father, the wonderful peace of Jesus, blessings too numerous to count from the Holy Spirit, and the blessed assurance that I am saved. I know this to be true because I plainly and simply believe:
John 20:31 when it says, "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.";
Paul and Silas in Acts 16:31 when they told the prison guard, "...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved and thy house," after he asked them in verse 30, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?";
and Romans 10:9 which states, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
So, as Peter aked his church elders, I ask you, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither we nor our fathers were able to bear? But we believe through the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." Acts 15:10, 11.
When we all finally put aside the distractions of arguing about religions, doctrines, who's right and who's wrong, etc. and just believe with a simple child-like faith, Jesus will enter into our lives and show us the true love of the Father who IS love, which will reflect back to Him, thereby causing us to keep what He told the Pharisees was the most important commandment: "...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment." (Matthew 22:37,38), and also what He said was the second greatest: "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." (Matthew 22:39). Then, by default, the TRUE Gospel could not help but spread like a wildfire.
Think of all the wars this world could have averted and how many lives would not have ended so abruptly and violently if humanity down through the ages had just paid closer attention to what Jesus and His Apostles were saying on the subject of salvation!
When I was a church member and being programmed, I was too terrified of God to ever feel any love from Him (thus, not feeling very loving toward Him) and did not look forward to the event that should be so important to all of us, The Second Coming of Jesus. I can tell you now, with no reservation, that I am ready and can hardly wait for the glorious day that I can see my Father and Savior, face to face, and forever thank Them and praise Them for what They did for me that fateful day on Calvary, in spite of me, a lowly sinner.
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Hi sherri, welcome to the debate? Your post tells me you are not interested in any discussion. Here are some questions I hope you will study:
Are you trying to put us down for our efforts to know the scriptures better? People learn from debate.
Show us where it is a sin or in any way wrong to do so.
Did Jesus use debate to spread truth?
Are you, at this point, so closed minded about what you believe that you will not listen to what anyone else has to say?
This last question is ask because you tell us you do not attend any Christian fellowship.
I feel qualified to tell you that Christian fellowship is needed in all of our lives. I did not attend for over two years after leaving Adventism. It was not good for my soul. We all need up lifting. Scripture tells us not to forsake assembling ourselves together. Maybe you would not be writing such posts if you would get back into church where you could help heal the sinners attending. I believe the church is a hospital for sick souls and I pray that I might, through the working of the Holy Spirit, be of service to my Savior.
I realize this post my seem a bit harsh, but it does need to be said, not only to you but all those who are critical of other sinners. Go in peace, bob
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Dear Sherri
I appreciate what you say about about religious debate etc. I am glad with you finding the love of Jesus and look forward with you to his return. Hopefully you now see that God as Jesus Christ is really love.
Jesus is called the Prince of Peace and says my peace I give unto you. But he also had to contend often for his true faith against the scribes, pharisees and ultimately the Sanhedrin. He was crucified during that battle, but praise God he rose again for our salvation. Jesus gives all his disciples the mission to go and make disciples among all nations. We have to present Bible truths in action and words to all kinds of people who think differently from what you or I do: such as atheists, agnostics, the unspiritual, people of other faiths both inside and outside of Christianity. This is what the discussion is all about, we are not fighting a war here (wars are fought for either religious or secular reasons).
Paul saw his mission as fighting the good fight of faith to lay hold of eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). We are all involved in a spiritual battle for our own lives as well as for our faith. Paul urged his listeners to put on the whole spiritual armour of God to stand against the devil - this involves the Gospel of peace (Ephesians 6:10-20). Jude 3 exhorted his listeners to contend earnestly for the faith. This is what the discussion is about: just what is the REAL GOSPEL - what does it involve? Is the Law opposed to the Gospel or do the two complement each other? As you can see we may not be doing a very good job with it due also to our human imperfections. Understanding just what Paul wrote in the New Testament is difficult as Peter says:
" - Paul, according to the wisdom given to him has written to you as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:15-16.
Nevertheless, we must stretch ourselves in order to grow in Christ (Ephesians 4:11-16), in mind and Spirit as we try to comprehend and understand the deep things of God and our salvation.
Welcome to the discussion!
Last edited by J. Knight (05-24-11 5:58 am)
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Dear Bob # 93
Jesus and John both taught that the commandments were necessary to show our love to God and our fellow humans. Jesus said:
“If you love me keep my commandments.” John 14:15.
The Greek word for commandments is entolas.
“This is my commandment that you love one another.” John 15:12.
“If you keep my commandments, you will continue in my love; as I have kept my Father’s commandments and continue in his love.” John 15:10.
John wrote, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.” 1 John 5:3.
How to keep the Sabbath holy?
“Then Jesus said to them, I will ask you one thing: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?” Luke 6:9. “ – Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Matt. 12:9-12.
Paul met Gentiles to teach them the word of God on what was still called the Sabbath in Acts 13:42-44; 16:11-13; it is evident to me that Paul was holding Bible studies on the Sabbath. There is one occasion when he met with believers on the first day in Acts 20:7 but this was not called the Sabbath.
The new moons or first day of each month were when the Israelites blew trumpets over their burnt offerings (Numbers 10:10; 28:11ff). Not much is written about these. But we know that all the animal offerings ultimately point to Christ’s sacrifice. When Messiah died he ended all those animal sacrifices (Daniel 9:24-27).
2 Cor 3:3
“You are manifestly an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is the heart.”
2 Cor. 3:6
[God] “Who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
I agree that the ink, stone tablets and letter which kill are the ministry of death but the Spirit gives life.
Where does the Holy Spirit write the 10 Commandments in our hearts?
Hebrews 10:15-17.
“And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then he adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
Romans 13:8-10.
“Owe no on anything except to love one another, for he who loves one another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet, and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Love does no harm to a neighbour; therefore love is the fulfilment of the law.
Paul is quoting the last five of the 10 Commandments (Ex. 20:13-17) and the love command (Lev. 19:18) from the rest of the Torah to both Jews and Gentile believers in Rome. Evidently, these specific laws were not made void by faith (Rom. 3:31); nor by the Cross; nor by Paul. Jesus (Matt. 19:16-19; 22:37-39) and James (2:8-11) also quoted from the 10 commandments and the law of love. The New Testament (NT) uses law: in Hebrew, torah; in Greek, nomos; and commandments in Greek, entolae, interchangeably.
1 John 3:24 - The commandments and the Spirit
“Now he who keeps his commandments (entolas) abides in him, and he in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.”
Keeping the commandments; abiding in him, Jesus Christ (v.23); the Spirit; and the believer are all connected and related to each other. We cannot deny this fact.
In the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, the word used referring to the 10 Commandments is the same Greek word, entolae in Deuteronomy 5:1-21, 29.
The commandments (entolas) in both Old and New Testament (Covenants) certainly includes the 7th day Sabbath, there is no escaping this fact.
You say Jesus never asked the Gentiles to observe the Sabbath?
But the real Jesus Christ was an Israeli-Jew, who taught the commandments (entolas) in John 14:15; 15:10, 12; and other texts. This includes the 7th day Sabbath he himself kept as a custom (Luke 4:16). After his resurrection Jesus then told his Jewish disciples to “go and make disciples of all nations... “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..” (Matt. 28:18-20).
You cited sabbatismos in relation to Hebrews 4:9. “There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.” Even non-SDA scholarship, such as Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich in their Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament (2000), page 909 say about sabbatismos:
“Sabbath rest, Sabbath observance – Heb. 4:9. A special period of rest for God’s people modelled after the traditional Sabbath.” And they cite other non-SDA scholars such as Barrett, Dodd and Weiss.
For “Rest”, page 523-24 says: “rest associated with the 7th day of creation.”
So the Jewish Apostles of Christ throughout the NT taught the commandments into the last book of the Bible; Revelation 12:17 where the devil wars against those who keep God’s commandments (entolas) and the faith of Jesus; also in Rev. 14:12.
Biblical scholars and theologians know that Jesus and his Apostles drew their teachings in the New Testament from the Old Testament. We must first understand the Old in order to understand the New. The Old Testament Law fulfilled in Christ becomes the Gospel of the New Testament. The two fully complement each other and are not in opposition. What changed was the motivation and reason for obeying God; instead of for righteousness, it is now out of love for what Christ did to save us.
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Notice that not everytime when the law is mentioned does it mean the 10 Commandments, notice:
2 Cor 3: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
And God did appoint another day, TODAY...
Heb 8: 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.”
Today means that you don't have to wait seven days or seven years to worship God, he is available TODAY.
Last edited by bob_2 (05-26-11 8:12 pm)
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Hebrews 4
1. Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest is still open, let us take care that none of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2. For indeed the good news came to us just as to them; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3. For we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "As in my anger I swore, they shall not enter my rest." though his works were finished at the foundation of the word. 4. For in one place it speaks about the seventh day as follows, "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." 5. And again in this place it says, "They shall not enter my rest." 6. Since therefore it remains open for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7. again he sets a certain day - "today" - saying through David much later, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8. For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later about another day. 9. So then, a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God; 10. for those who enter God's rest also cease from their labors as God did from his. 11. Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fall through such disobedience as theirs. (NRSV).
There are 2 rests mentioned here: 1. The 7th Day Sabbath and not just any other day. There is only one holy day in the week and it is the 7th Day Sabbath. We are to work for 6 days but the 7th Day is God's holy day; this is the rest he invites people to enter. 2. Rest in God's promised land.
When the writer speaks about "today" he quotes David's Psalm 95:7-8; this is among the Sabbath Psalms in Book 4 of the Psalms (90-106), see for example the title of Psalm 92, where it says, "A Psalm. A Song for the Sabbath day." Today also refers to the 7th Day Sabbath and not just any other day.
Psalm 95:7-8 itself refers back to Israel travelling through the desert at Meribah which means contention or strife, and at Massah which means testing. This is recorded in Exodus 17:1-7, where Israel contended against Moses and tested God. That was one of their rebellions, which meant that 1st generation could not enter God's earthly promised land (Heb. 4:5-6). But some must enter it, so he speaks about David, and the 2nd generation under Joshua who entered the earthly promised land (Heb. 4:6-8). The rest they enjoyed under Joshua refers to that in the earthly promised land, after many years of travelling and fighting (Joshua 22:1-4). Then in Heb. 4:9-11, he reminds his audience that there still remains a rest for God's people, and speaks about God resting on that first Sabbath (Gen. 2:1-3). Heb. 4:11 then says let us be diligent to enter that rest which God himself entered at the end of creation week.
This is inviting people to enter God's 7th Day of rest, not just in letter but in Spirit and in truth. For those who worship God must do so in Spirit and truth, as Jesus said to the Samaritan woman in John 4:24.
Ultimately, all the OT Sabbaths, new moons and festivals were shadows of things to come, the substance of Christ as it says in Colossians 2:16-17. So, yes, we are also to rest in Jesus Christ.
All of those rests point to the eternal rest from rebellion, sin and death, in God’s eternal promised land of the new Heaven and new Earth.
“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, says the LORD; so shall your descendants and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.” Isaiah 66:22-23.
“Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more....” Rev. 21:1ff.
“Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.” Rev. 22:14 (NKJV).
“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come!” And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who thirsts come. And whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” Rev. 22:17.
Have a happy Sabbath here and in eternity.
Last edited by J. Knight (05-27-11 8:30 am)
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J. Knight, sorry but we will have to agree to disagree. If you want to continue to argue what has already been discussed, I submit a thread on www.atomorrow.com for your perusal. I am tired of chewing my cabbage twice:
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1105168209
When you come to the end of a page, to continue scroll to the top of the page and press the next button. Enjoy!
If that length discussion does not answer your questions then brings them back and we will study them.
Last edited by bob_2 (05-27-11 8:59 pm)
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