Ethics: medical vs. clerical

maggie · 02-23-09 1:27 am

Bob, do not call me dear. I am not your dear. Yuck. And, no, it takes a sober poster to notice when someone's spelling and syntax are much worse than usual, as yours sometimes are.

maggie · 02-23-09 1:28 am

People who are drunk find each other terribly clever.

bob_2 · 02-23-09 1:56 am

You are welcome to accuse me falsely. That is your perogative and judge my eyesight in a non compassionate way. Your obsession with spelling was never demonstrated when J.R. misspelt nearly his whole post some times. You understood his post and would respond. I don't believe he was drunk but just didn't care to look up the words. You are not my judge. I will make you a deal, I will stop calling you dear, you stop publicly judging my spelling and syntax. You don't understand something, you are welcome to ask me a question, politely. You want respect, respect others. Your accusation of drunkeness if continues will be directed to Ryan for his resolution. Thanks.

maggie · 02-23-09 2:05 am

Bob. I'm telling you that many times your posts make no sense. At other times I can at least tell what you're trying to say. You've admitted to drinking while posting before. People are drawing logical conclusions from the information you've given and the way you come across at times. You should know that if you drink while posting, it will be noticed. Your own brother, apparently, is at a loss to know how to handle you. I think no one else is doing any better either - I'm certainly not. (Message edited by maggie on February 23, 2009)

bob_2 · 02-23-09 8:36 am

I am warning you, unless you can prove what you are saying I will ask the moderator to get involved. One more such accusation and I will ask Ryan to speak with you. You have gotten yourself next to Atheism and they use the "how can a loving God" argument and you have bought it. I am participating on the forum Don moderates which you left because you didn't like the control. If Don has a problem with me, he emails me. I do not drink and post, and what little alchol I imbibe is nothing close to what your "bud" J.R. admitted to imbibing. So go pick on someone like that, and see how long you will be tolerated, certainly not as long as I will. Your posts are incomprehensible some times, but I have not besmugged your reputatation about being drunk. Back off, or I will act. Maggie, I can't help you, I have figured. If you choose to be lost to heaven, so be it, I can not help more than I have. If you fear the fire God will use to purge sin, ask Jesus into your life, but don't get into destroying reputations. That has consequences different than fire!!! PS, J.R. would purpose misspell his posts, talk abusively to you and Elaine and you both would take it. Go complain to J.R. about His treatment of you. LEAVE ME ALONE.

heipauli · 02-23-09 9:58 am

Dear Moderator, a couple of years ago in FIMNET (kind of intranet for members of Finnish Medical Association; even medical students from a certain level on can be members) a poster - he was still studying medicine in university - began sending posts like Bob 2. The difference being that those Finnish posts did not deal with religion. It took not more than c. 2 weeks when all the other participants appealed to the moderator and asked that the posts sent by that unfortunate, mentally imbalanced student should be deleted and his posting privileges cancelled until he had got professional help enough to restore his judgment. And the moderators reacted immediately. Not even a single physician resisted the decision. As a foreigner I'm between rock and hard place to give any advice, but it seems to me that the tone of this whole forum has rapidly degraded and people are using too much of their mental energy and their valuable time for bickering and name-calling. Some say that there should not be "quilt by association". Maybe so. But at least I have felt "shame by association". This is an open forum. Anyone of my colleaques and ex-SDA friends can see, which kind of forum I've kept writing to. If and when they ask me, why do I defame myself in participating in this kind of tragicomedy, I cannot give a decent answer. So, I hope for an energetic response. Someone has to go. If there are no other alternatives, then please, kick me off! Not that there were medical reasons to justify it IMHO, but obviously medical help is not available to a member who seems to be in a dire need of it. It was fun as long it was fun. Now reading many messages makes me feel so unable to help. If someone of you knows a forum I could seriously consider (not necessarily connected with Adventism but absolutely not connected with Bob 2 or the likes of him), please tell me the correct net address.

maggie · 02-23-09 10:13 am

Pauli, I'll go. Maybe your approach on the other thread I protested about was the better one. I decided to take a few hours and go toe-to-toe with Bob, because of his endlessly following me around with his 'remarks.' In retrospect, that is worse than useless. My earlier thoughts about just ignoring him were better, but just removing myself is better still. I'll go. Edit: No, on reflection, I think that it's not healthy for me to ignore his 'remarks' and just keep on absorbing them, and I'm not insisting that he be removed. Ryan can run this forum as he sees fit. 'Pushing back' as I did is clearly not a wise course, so the only sensible thing for me to do is leave myself. (Message edited by maggie on February 23, 2009)

heipauli · 02-23-09 10:53 am

Maggie, your going is no solution at all! After you he will pick another target and another and another, until there are left only those who think just like him. And quess, how many will go very soon after you have gone! What we need is a forum for mature, tolerant people with different views. No ad hominem things, no vendetta between participants. I were ready even drop out politics, economics, medicine etc. Mere (a)Christianity, philosophy, what think about sacred books and translations thereof. Of ideas, of feelings, of happiness, children, marriage, death, afterlife, cosmos. Of art, literature, poetry... You sure grasp what I long for a discussion. Quality more important than quantity or lenghth of posts. Silence when people are thinking over. Courtesy. Sympathy. Caring. Impossible dreams, or are they?

maggie · 02-23-09 11:00 am

I don't know, Pauli. I'm clearly fed up with Bob2, as is now clear to all. That doesn't mean I hate him or wish him ill in any way, but I'm just done being messed with by him. So much for being "mature" and "tolerant," huh? <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0>

maggie · 02-23-09 11:05 am

Impossible dreams, or are they? On the Internet, you'd have to over-control to achieve that kind of Utopia, and Utopias notoriously turn into little hells. So yeah, maybe impossible. Right now it seems impossible, but I'm needing to get out of reactive mode, as you can tell. Maybe when I get myself in a more resourceful state things will look better.

bob_2 · 02-23-09 11:32 am

Maggie said: Pauli, I'll go. Maybe your approach on the other thread I protested about was the better one. Maybe Hubb and Don would welcome you and Pauli back to contribute to their forum, with your free thinking.

don · 02-23-09 12:15 pm

Maggie <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=13&post=2265#POST2265" target="_blank">said</a>: Your own brother, apparently, is at a loss to know how to handle you. Maggie, Bob and I have had some pretty intense discussions. While in process, I did not really know how to get through our differences. When that happens, it is essential to keep communicating; maybe about the weather for awhile, but keep communicating. We did this. We have actually reached a working agreement in online matters that I manage. It can be done. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> So, it is inaccurate what you say in the statement at the top of this post. I am not "at a loss to know how to handle" Bob. Bob feels strongly on matters. As we have struggled over ideas, he has been a blessing to me. I understand New Covenant Theology (NCT) quite well, now. I had never heard of it before I studied his posts. Since our NCT discussions have begun, I have studied the sources he quotes and others I have found on my own, and have a pretty good beginner's knowledge on NCT. On the forum I help manage, we expect "Courteous Free Speech". I think that should be practiced here, as well. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> .

don · 02-23-09 12:22 pm

Pauli mentioned: the file was unaccessible for laity I recall earlier times where the policy book was kept secretly. Now, the church is far more open with it. Also, the Minnesota Conference's posting its policy book online, without password access, is quite out there on the cutting edge of transparency. .

don · 02-23-09 12:35 pm

Pauli, You wrote: but obviously medical help is not available to a member who seems to be in a dire need of it. (I write as a fellow poster on this forum. I do not have moderator responsibilities here.) Pauli, IMHO, you need to restrain your medical opinion because of your professional status. You don't have all the facts and you know that it is unwise to give a medical opinion prematurely, especially in a public forum. My father was a physician and one of my brothers is, also. I understand and respect those such as yourself and Dr. Sturges because of the obvious discipline your vocation demands. I believe that a few courses on Conflict Management would help us all, including me. Hoping we can all get through these differences and enjoy each other's contributions, Don .

don · 02-23-09 12:44 pm

One further idea: Bob, I am getting involved in something that is not my business, but here goes... Maggie, you have said how Bob "following you around" is a bother to you. It seems one of the first steps is to simply identify the troublesome behavior and clearly ask him to stop. If he fails to do so, it is on the record and Ryan can decide what to do. Free Speech has its limits. Courtesy includes staying out of discussions when a person has been asked to do so. The request may have to be repeated, or threads established for specific dialogue. This calls for more intense oversight and should not be necessary on an open forum. However, freedom creates the need for its own limits. .

don · 02-23-09 1:43 pm

Maggie and Pauli, I have written to this matter already, but I want to concur with Pauli that leaving does not help solve matters. IMO, we have an opportunity to demonstrate how to resolve difference on a forum such as this. With that, I will try to be silent for a moment or two. Don ------------

bob_2 · 02-23-09 1:46 pm

Don, since it is an open forum you should be able to tell yourself if what Maggie accuses is true. Look and determine if Maggie ever asked me not to respond to her posts she did on just about every thread, last night. Not that you are a moderator, but you can see for yourself before posting an accusation. (Message edited by Bob_2 on February 23, 2009)

george · 02-23-09 2:33 pm

Here's an idea - let's just keep to the topic of the threads and IGNORE the personal digs. I have usually ignored Bob2 but there are times when I can't stand it any more and I have to engage, but I'm always sorry I did.

bob_2 · 02-23-09 2:53 pm

Sirje, you are into this too, so don't falsely point at just me. There are some posts that you have involved yourself in rudeness that I called you on.

george · 02-23-09 4:45 pm

OK Bob, This will be my last post to you. You're acting exactly like a playground bully who loves picking on anybody in range but cries fowl when he gets socked back. You wrote the book on rudeness but you're obviously not aware of it. Blather if you must, but you'll get no further comments from me. Good luck.

admin · 02-23-09 5:00 pm

To everyone: Remember that this forum doesn't exist for personal attacks, bullying, etc. which is going on here by more than just Bob Sands. I don't want to start kicking and temporarily banning people, but I will if you guys keep this up. What's so hard about using this site as a place to discus Adventism and the other few topics on the main page? If you guys want to argue, call each other up and do it so people like Pauli doesn't have to be associated with your name-calling and immature rants. John, deleting your post because of swearing. This thread will be closed if it doesn't return to Pauli's original topic. I'll check back in a few hours. Ryan (Message edited by admin on February 23, 2009)

maggie · 02-23-09 5:35 pm

Sirje, I'm always sorry when I engage also. My ego is no prettier than anyone else's. Yuck. That said, I think I'm not here to solve the forum's problems. Sometimes enough is just enough. I think I've had enough. The Internet is just what it is. I'm prepared to accept that and move on. God bless you all.

maggie · 02-23-09 5:46 pm

Don, Bob is your brother. You have a lifelong relationship with him. You can't let your brother down by giving up on him, because of the kind of person you are, which I greatly admire. There is really no reason why I need to try to forge a relationship with your brother in this life. I know he needs a lot of love and prayers and I will work on myself in that respect, I promise. But he doesn't need me, as he needs you, to be in constant relationship with him. Some people you just need to bless and let go, and your brother is one of those people for me. If I haven't said my piece about Adventism by now, I never will, so I'm going to call it good and go my way. Hubb, thank you so much for your kind invitation. Why don't we just agree to have Ethiopian food in the Great By and By, OK? I think I'm a bit too much for you, too, but I truly love and respect you. I think I need to let Adventism be part of my past now. It's given me many gifts as well as many painful experiences to overcome. It's all good. Love,

neal · 02-23-09 7:32 pm

Don When I joined more than 3 years ago J.R. set up a thread titled something along the lines of Agnostics & Atheists Welcome HERE. Bob jumped on and started slamming me within hours of the start of the thread. Later he claimed he wore it as a "badge of honor" what he had done and what he was continuing to do. This has nothing to do with him being interested in dialog. He isn't, by his own admission. I get the impression that he uses his harassment of some of us as a point of pride when talking to his friends, wife, co-workers, etc. Even when he told John & I to suck rocks, eat **** & die he blamed it on the "circumstances". He does not take responsibility for his actions in the least. Its always something or somebody else's fault. Therefore, this is not a situation of "resolving differences". He comes on with the intention of causing trouble because he is proud of his actions and claims being a trouble-maker is a badge of honor. When he upsets people that have come to conclusions different than his own sometimes they leave. This he counts as a victory. It's elementary school type behavior but somehow he feels his god will reward him for being like a mosquito on an elephant- just a little prick.

bob_2 · 02-23-09 8:15 pm

Atheism leads to death, dust and the END. What is the point of your discussion to get people to not believe the Bible or Adventism. Notice the rules laid down by Ryan: Forum guidelines: 1) Try to keep all posts on the topic of the thread to which you posted. Off-topic posts will most likely be moved to a better location or deleted. 2) Remember the Golden Rule. 3) Profanity, lewd language, gender aggression, harassment, and spamming will not be tolerated. 4) Do not re-post extensive material. Instead, post links to the material's original location. 5) Ranting, raving, and hate speech/mail against religions, churches, and individuals will not be tolerated. 6) ATomorrow.net is not a hate forum towards the Seventh-day Adventist Church and Denomination. 7) ATomorrow.net is not a forum for the promotion of any other religious faiths/philosophies/belief systems. Neal, my bet, you would have a hard time supporting that. That is my problem with your constent purveying of Atheism, which violates item 7. IF you remember Ron Corson was frustrated that he couldn't have discussions on a Christian forum without even an agreement or conscensus that the Bible is a good starting place. Your starting place is paganism, or some other place. Ryan, do you want such a thread again, "Atheists welcome here not here"?

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