The Universe...created for life? or .....

neal · 04-23-09 6:01 am

Any belief that is irrational should be eliminated, not replaced. Amon, Elaine.

bob_2 · 04-23-09 9:10 am

An aweful lot of people looking, and asking about what happens after death. Some give some answers, why you and Elaine, maybe others, are here trying to tear down people's hopes and God's promises of an afterlife, I'll never know, probably.

neal · 04-23-09 10:20 am

An aweful lot of people looking, and asking about what happens after death. An awful lot of people looking, and asking about why their baby was taken by God by SIDS. An awful lot of people looking, and asking about why their child got cancer. An awful lot of people looking, and asking about why Jesus hasn't come. (My FIL, on his 80th Birthday, told us the most surprising thing to him was that he had reached 80- he was certain Jesus would have come before he reached that age.) An awful lot of people looking, and asking about the lack of evidence for a God that intervenes in this world. An awful lot of people looking, and asking about why their child has rejected their superstitions when they were brought up "so well". An awful lot of people looking, and asking about why there is so much starvation and death in the world if there is a caring God that looks out for the sparrows. An awful lot of people looking, and asking about why most of the phenomena claimed to be the workings of Yahweh in the OT have turned out to be natural events. An awful lot of people looking, and asking about why the God of the OT magically turned into a God of love in the NT. Completely different persona and teachings. Etc, ad infinitum.

renie · 04-23-09 12:12 pm

Those are only a part of the questions I have asked more than once. Preachers have given many, many sermons about God who is forever silent. Billy Graham once said jokingly, "The only time my prayers are not answered is when I'm on the golf course." If I wanted to take his quote seriously, I would have to wonder why none of his prayers where answered on the golf course but they were answered off the golf course? Any time we hear a story of a miracle happening to someone, we can always list a hundred similar stories where no miracle happened. Go figure! renie

john8verse32 · 04-23-09 1:44 pm

Any time we hear a story of a miracle happening to someone, we can always list a hundred similar stories where no miracle happened. its like when your friends go to Lost Wages... the only time they talk about the 'action", is if they win...even a small amount.... you almost never hear about the millions who lose (and who therefore help pay for those big buildings) in addition...we were told that God has a plan... who are we to ask God to diverge from his plan, and do something outside of his "plan" for us individually? brings up one of the last statements attributed to Jesus on the cross... ...please take this "cup" from me... but if you can't, then its thy will, not mine.

john8verse32 · 04-23-09 1:47 pm

trying to tear down people's hopes...Bob should we continue trying to explain to Islamic Terrorists that there may not be enuf virgins to go around when they reach haven? .... Are we wrong to do so in the hopes that they give up their misguided beliefs, and concentrate on living in the here and now and making this a better place?

neal · 04-23-09 1:51 pm

Renie Last summer we went to the ABC store at the Rocky Mtn Conference HQ. We were a few minutes early so I got out of the vehicle. An elderly man & wife & granddaughter pulled up beside us. They didn't recognize me so they asked where I went to church. I said I didn't, I was an atheist. Just then they opened the ABC. We went in but the granddaughter followed me around asking questions in disbelief that she had met an ex-SDA atheist. Finally, her grandfather came up and introduced himself. He said he was retired doctor. The granddaughter (she was around 30 years old) kept yapping about the power of prayer so I asked the retired doc if he had ever seen a medical miracle due to prayer. He stated, hesitatingly, that, No, he had never seen prayer affect the outcome of any patient over his long career. At least I can say that he was honest.

elaine · 04-23-09 9:55 pm

Neal, the kind of honesty I've heard from many SDA physicians, including my husband. As a pathologist he often quipped that he was the last doc to see all the other docs mistakes! He was a Christian believer, but he had never witnessed a miracle, nor did any of his colleagues. It always happens to someone's sister's former boyfriend's mother's grandfather's second cousin.... you get the picture.

elaine · 04-23-09 9:56 pm

Bob, have you ever observed, first hand, a miracle?

renie · 04-23-09 10:23 pm

Miracles,as we define them, wouldn't fair, would they Elaine? One person's miracle is always going to be another person's disappointment. renie

bob_2 · 04-24-09 5:12 pm

The Virgin Birth would not be observed except by some pervert prowling around Mary's bedroom, eh?? Come on Elaine. The Resurrection and Ascension, miracles both, the latter definitely had witnesses, a little hard to see Christ actually taking the burial clothes off behind the rock, and if the soldier was asleep either naturally or induced by God or Jesus, he wouldn't have observed it. Miracles don't have to always be observed but evidence to prove can be overwheloming. Elaine, you are slipping as one of the slime pond tenders.

bob_2 · 04-24-09 6:29 pm

In fact Elaine, the pervert would have to be in the womb or fallopian tubes of Mary to witness the miracle, if I am correct on what the Virgin Birth would involve, hardly likely, would you agree??

elaine · 04-24-09 7:14 pm

THere are no limits to the supernatural, so anything is possible if one is a "true beleever." Could have been an alien from outer space that impregnated Mary, for all anyone knows for sure.

bob_2 · 04-24-09 10:13 pm

If you don't believe in the proper source of the story, or you have dismantled or torn it apart so you can't read it, in any reasonable manner, as I believe Ms. Nelson has done or is attempting to do, based on God knows what secular class or book she has read and has rattling around in her consciousness as mental plagiarism.

pilgrim99 · 04-24-09 11:42 pm

Bob, you said:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Are all you tSDAs read this stuff. I'm the only one challenging this nut job???? Renie, Cadge, Devon, no reaction. I'm truly disappointed...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I am not a tSDA or even an SDA for that matter, I am simply an imperfect Christian, a man made from common dirt. Neither you nor I can argue anyone into the Kingdom of God. Many are impressed with their own intellectual capacity, they worship at the god of human intellect. We all have a tendency to do this, even though we are all just dirt men and dirt women. Your defense of the faith is admirable, but I fear that you are dealing with people who are hardened and passionate unbelievers. I pray that this is not the case. Nothing that you or I can say will change them. The only way that they will change is by responding to the message of the Bible. They know that there are alternate and reasonable understandings to their statements, yet they have chosen to believe the lie, and to follow blind guides, nothing new here. Satan is the master of deception. This has always been his singular method. The same John who is ridiculed on this site, recorded these words from Jesus:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me, but you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life. John 5:39, 40 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I thank God that He saw value on us dirt people and sent His Son to pay the penalty for our sins and transgressions, he paid the price that we are unable to pay.

neal · 04-25-09 9:33 am

The Virgin Birth would not be observed except by some pervert prowling around Mary's bedroom, eh?? Bob, Elaine asked "have you ever observed, first hand, a miracle?" You changed the subject. She did not ask whether you or anybody else was in Mary's bedroom or fallopian tubes. BTW, what would God be doing in Mary's bedroom anyhow? Maybe he would have done "the deed" while she walking down the dirt path in the village.

bob_2 · 04-25-09 3:20 pm

Good speculation, are you going to right a treatise on that. Let me know the source when you do. TTTHTFAL otherwise.

neal · 04-25-09 3:45 pm

right a treatise Maybe if you could explain how to "right" a treatise?

john8verse32 · 04-25-09 4:29 pm

1 wunders if the Kanadian edyoucayshun cystum nedes inprovment....cuz aparantlie, itz <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/16/1046.gif" alt="">

john8verse32 · 04-25-09 4:41 pm

but back to my original question for this thread: was the universe set up for life...whether by the God of the Hebrews who became so angry that He tried to kill all his creatures in a flood for which he left no evidence, or by a "designer" who "designed" things in a way to allow the evol..ah, "creation"of life.... well, according to EGW, there is a hole in Orion, and it is just the other side of this "hole" that Jesus is pouring concrete and framing mansions to bring thru the hole to us..not just houses, mind you, but mansions. The low class Anglo-Saxon for house is "haus", and would of course refer to what the poor peasantslived in back in Olde Angleland....while the invading Norman Phrench build their larger, haute classe houses as "maisons". And maybe not out of concrete, because that would require limestone, which is of course the product of gigabeyons and beyons of tiny marine animals sacrificed just to make rock in a shallow sea. Probably not available out in space. Maybe not typical wood framing, either, since there might not be forests out there to cut down. But whatever the mansions she saw, scientists see a different story today with better optics and less imagination. Astronomers, using the United Kingdom Infrared Telescope (UKIRT) in Hawaii, the IRAM Millimeter-wave Telescope in Spain, and the Spitzer Space Telescope in orbit above Earth, have completed the most wide-ranging census ever produced of dynamical star formation in and around the well-known Orion Nebula (M42). They have found this stellar nursery to be a lively and somewhat overcrowded place, with young stars emitting gas jets in all directions and creating quite a chaotic picture. There is much more going on in Orion than previously thought. well, whatduyuknow!!! God is making more stars!!!! not mansions!!! Creation or evolution is continuing.... it wasn't over in the first 6 earth daze. <a href="http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=8165" target=_top>http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=8 165</a> (Message edited by john8verse32 on April 25, 2009)

bob_2 · 04-25-09 11:30 pm

John we capitalize better usually. Mock away, John. You could make your points without mocking if you want other to do the same, ie Elaine and Neal, but you participate in it, so other have to defend themselves with similar tactics. GETTING IT YET, JOHN? Doubtful!!!

john8verse32 · 04-28-09 12:40 pm

the universe is at least 13 byo.... based on red shift computations of a recent gamma ray burst just witnessed by the Swift Telescope.... quote: The Farthest Thing Ever Seen A faint gamma-ray burst (GRB) captured last Thursday by NASA’s Swift satellite has smashed the record for the earliest, most-distant known object in the universe — with a redshift of about 8.2. The fading infrared afterglow of GRB 090423 is circled in this infrared image taken with the Gemini North Telescope in Hawaii. The burst is the farthest, earliest cosmic explosion yet seen. The burst, named GRB 090423 for its discovery date, went off in Leo and was seen to last for 10 seconds. Several teams, including a group using the Gemini-North telescope in Hawaii and a European group using the Very Large Telescope in Chile, followed up the Swift detection by observing the burst’s fading infrared afterglow. Based on how much the afterglow’s light was redshifted (stretched) by cosmic expansion since the era when the burst happened, the group determined that it went off about 630 million years after the Big Bang. This means that the GRB's gamma rays traveled for a mind-boggling 13.1 billion years before reaching Earth. That's so far back in time that it's meaningless to assign a specific "distance," since large distances in the universe have themselves expanded by a factor of 9.2 since that time. From the burst's perspective, Earth's formation lay 8.5 billion years in the future. <a href="http://www.skyandtelescope.com/community/skyblog/newsblog/43700627.html" target=_top>http://www.skyandtelescope.com/community/skyblog/n ewsblog/43700627.html</a> so explosions were going off billions of years ago!!! how does that contribute to making the universe a magnificently "designed" environment just for humans? are all these seemingly random collisions, explosions and impacts out there part of a designed "grand plan"??? or are we, like the universe appears to be, part of a naturally chaotic "grand experiment"?

bob_2 · 04-28-09 5:39 pm

Who says only humans exist in the Universe? We are the only occupants created in God's image. I have no problem with the universe and it being billions of years old, it is when you start speculating about earth, and its occupants that you have my attention.

john8verse32 · 04-29-09 8:52 am

We are the only occupants created in God's image. that would seem to be a false, non prophet belief, without taking into account the extra-Biblical "newlight" that the Holy Spirit has deigned to reveal to us: here's the REAL truth: from: <a href="http://mmoutreachinc.com/seventh_day_adventists/sda_index.html" target=_top>http://mmoutreachinc.com/seventh_day_adventists/sd a_index.html</a> or <a href="http://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/whichgod.html" target=_top>http://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/whichg od.html</a> Ellen's first astronomy vision was November, 1846 in Topsham ME "Spiritual Gifts" vol. 2, p. 83. In this vision she saw only planets, she gave no names to them. James referred to this vision in A Word to the Little flock," p. 22. Saying "she was guided to the planets, Jupiter, Saturn, and I think one more." Nichol claims James was let to believe Bates' identification of the planet. Her next astronomy vision was in January 31, 1849, first published, Broadside To those who are receiving the seal of the living God. See also, "Early Writings" pp. 39,40. Here she was "taken to a world with seven moons and saw good old Enoch." Shouldn't Enoch be young instead of old? My argument would be with James White's testimony of his identifying the planets with names. Why did not God correct him through Ellen's visions instead of letting him spout off errors? Like God corrected Peter's wrong view of the Gentiles. Ellen was always claiming God gave her visions to correct errors. Or why did Ellen not correct James herself and say, James God did not give me the names of the planets? But she allowed James to print out his errors if they are errors over the paper A Word to the Little flock," they supposed to have knelt down and held before them and prayed over them to God before sending it out. To me this would be a powerful testimony to the false visions of EGW. "Sister White was in very feeble health, and while prayers were offered in her behalf, the Spirit of God rested upon us. We soon noticed that she was insensible to earthly things. This was her first view of the planetary world. After counting aloud the moons of Jupiter, and soon after those of Saturn, she gave a beautiful description of the rings of the latter. She then said, ... ...'The inhabitants are a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of earth. Sin has never entered here.' " (Taken from Mrs. Truesdail's letter, Jan 27, 1891) In a book written by J. N. Loughborough at a time when he believed Mrs. White to be a Prophet (The Great Second Advent Movement) page 260... Again we quote Mrs. Truesdale, who was present on the occasion of the giving of the vision referred to. She says: …After counting aloud the moons of Jupiter, and soon after those of Saturn, she gave a beautiful description of the rings of the later. She then said that the inhabitants of Saturn "are a tall, majestic people, so unlike the inhabitants of Earth".

neal · 04-29-09 9:16 am

I have no problem with the universe and it being billions of years old, it is when you start speculating about earth, and its occupants that you have my attention. If you accept the evidence that Genesis 1:14-19 is false then you have no credible basis to believe that Genesis 1:26-27 is correct. A quickie Bible study for Bob: To start our study today, lets begin (and please open your web browser to the link listed below) with Genesis 1:1<blockquote>1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.</blockquote> As you can see boys and girls, the Holy Word of the goat herders clearly links the two events, the creation of the earth and the heavens (dome) to the same few days. When did their god create them? Speak up. Yes, that's correct. In the beginning! Very good. Does Genesis 1 say "In the beginning of earth's history God this added this planet to the universe?" No! Correct, very good. Please follow along in the text now: <blockquote>14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.</blockquote> So, God set the sun, moon, and STARS IN the expanse (dome). The stars are part of what we now call the "visible universe". You accept, contrary to Genesis, that the "visible universe" is NOT 6000 years old but is BILLIONS of years old. Yet you stubbornly refuse to accept, based on all the evidence science has been able to put together, that the SAME STORY in THE SAME BOOK in the SAME CHAPTER is just as blatantly false when it explains the creation of humans as it is when it explains the ancient ideas that the stars (suns) were hung in a dome and are a mere few thousand years old. <blockquote>26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. </blockquote> <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+1" target=_top>http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesi s+1</a> Your lack of rational thinking about this subject is clearly delusional.

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