Haven't we spent enough money yet???

bob_2 · 03-04-09 12:37 am

Apparently not. Obama appears to be making good on his speculation about Reparations for Blacks: <a href="http://84rules.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/commission-to-study-reparation-proposals-for-african-americans-act-hr-40/" target=_top>http://84rules.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/commission -to-study-reparation-proposals-for-african-america ns-act-hr-40/</a> <a href="http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=71043" target=_top>http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=7 1043</a> And what is that going to cost us. I thought this was Reparations that Obama was exacting out of right now.

neal · 03-04-09 8:44 am

Obama appears to be making good on his speculation about Reparations for Blacks: Weren't you just arguing that David had to offer up Saul's sons? The offspring were somehow responsible? It seems you are having a hard time keeping your beliefs straight.

elaine · 03-04-09 1:23 pm

Socialism? The government pays for police departments, other law enforcement agencies and the military, so I guess we have socialized security. The government pays for public schools, so I guess we have socialized education. The government pays for VA health care and benefits, Medicare and Medicaid. The government pays for cleaning the streets and waste disposal, so I guess we have socialized sanitation. With any luck, someday, the government will take on the responsibility of truly providing health care for everyone in the country, so I guess if that’s socialized medicine, I can hardly wait. If conservative Republicans are trying to make a fear of socialism their rallying cry to upset the Obama administration’s efforts to deal with our economic crisis, that pitiful effort will only make them look even more ridiculous in the eyes of the general public.

bob_2 · 03-04-09 2:17 pm

Only David consulted the Urim and Thummim <a href="http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/2samuel/gill/2samuel21.htm" target=_top>http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/2samuel/gill/2s amuel21.htm</a> if you read the story over. It told him what to do. I think if I was in front of those two stones and they were signalling to me, I would do as I was told. I don't know how Obama would do there.

bob_2 · 03-04-09 2:21 pm

Elaine, at your age, you should hope and pray your Utopia comes quickly, and has a guarantee from crashing and burning like our current economy is doing right now. For some reason, I think Socialism is not the collective answer to our problems and we will have more pain in the near future to prove it.

neal · 03-04-09 3:42 pm

Only David consulted the Urim and Thummim.... I bet you can go down to Jindal country and find a witch doctor that still believes in the magic dice. Maybe he could help you decide which church to go to. Free up some time for you on the weekend.

neal · 03-04-09 3:54 pm

... I think Socialism is not the collective answer to our problems.... Let's get rid of: Food stamps Minimum wage Child labor laws Social Security Medicare Tax free bonds for nursing homes Gas taxes to build roads Food & Drug Administration CDC County health clinics where the poor get vaccinated The EPA Clean drinking water laws Public Utilities commissions that control the price of electricity Subsidized milk School lunches for poor kids *******What have I left out Bob? When you get a little further in your Strobel reading project I believe he tackles the question of why the poor seem to bear the brunt of the misery. The Ayne Rand atheist capitalism you espouse just wants to heap the misery on in even larger doses. How can you claim to be a christian and root for unrestricted free market capitalism? The NT says people with your attitude will burn in hades. HELP the poor. HELP the old. HELP being the key word in case you missed it.

bob_2 · 03-04-09 4:00 pm

Regulation and control I did not condemn. Man has a natural inclination to evil. But that list is a good one to start with. We could save a lot fo money in the budget if we weren't funding teachers union with the Education Deparment. Socialism is not taxation for projects, Socialism is taking from the rich and giving to the poor until the field is level. All motivation to produce evaporates.

neal · 03-04-09 4:08 pm

Socialism is taking from the rich and giving to the poor until the field is level Which is what Jesus taught. If you want heaven... what did he say? Give all that you have to the poor. Socialism is just carrying out the command of Jesus! <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

bob_2 · 03-04-09 4:26 pm

The rich young ruler proved he loved his riches more than Jesus. There probably were other that were wealthy that knew how to use their wealth but the point to the rich young ruler is not all wealthy people must be penniless to be a Christian. That was not the point to that story at all. It is not to have any idols in place of God/Jesus.

neal · 03-04-09 6:19 pm

... not all wealthy people must be penniless to be a Christian. Where did you come up with that? And why didn't Jesus just tell the guy to not have any idols? Being a "ruler" seems more of an idol than to have money. I don't remember about rulers having a hard time getting into heaven or rulers giving up their rule in order to get into heaven or blessed are the rulers for they shall inherit the earth.<blockquote>Acts 20:32 "Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I have not coveted anyone's silver or gold or clothing. 34 You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35 In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "</blockquote> <blockquote>James 2:1 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong? 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[b] also said, "Do not murder."[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. 12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.</blockquote>

bob_2 · 03-04-09 6:50 pm

None of those quotes tell the Christian to give until they are destitute themselves. That would make no sense. Romans 18, Paul praise those that had the means to help and did.

bob_2 · 03-04-09 7:09 pm

If you believe those quotes mean for Christians to be destitute, what of this quote: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:1 Tim 5:8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Have a hard time providing for my own if I gave it all away to every charity case on my way to work, eh??

bob_2 · 03-04-09 7:16 pm

How many "INFIDELS" are Obama ENABELING on his spending spree??? EH!!!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0>

neal · 03-04-09 7:19 pm

I don't think the term "destitute" had come up in our conversation. I lived in New Zealand which is much more socialized than anything proposed here in the States. I wasn't taxed till I was destitute nor to the level of having no incentive to hold a job. There is a lot of wealth in France, the UK, Sweden, Switzerland, etc and they are more socialist than what is proposed here. It was the christian communist pact of the Mayflower Puritans which was a complete failure and abandoned after a couple years. You argue against even providing the basic necessities to the poor claiming its socialist and people won't want to work. I say, from the NT, that your position is unchristian and non-biblical. Lets cut off your tax free nursing home bonds which subsidizes the old in your establishment and see who howls. It would be you, Bob.

neal · 03-04-09 7:26 pm

Have a hard time providing for my own if I gave it all away to every charity case on my way to work, eh?? There are a LOT of homeless in Boulder. I am stopped, normally, at an intersection each day where one will be with a sign asking for help. I give money (usually $2-5) to every single one IF their sign is devoid of "God Bless" etc. I figure if they believe in God they should be praying for Him to send money instead of asking me for it.

bob_2 · 03-04-09 7:33 pm

Taxation with representation is American. But if individuals aren't allowed to enjoy what they have earned, I'll guarantee that is unAmerican and antiChristian. If you take the Rich Young Ruler to its absurd conclusion, we all would be destitute and in sandals out proslytzing like the disciples. Christ was able to multiple fish and bread and I'm sure the disciples dropped in on family for meals, but God wants us providing for our own. I'm all for safety nets for society, the guy with the sign at the stop sign, "Will work for Food" if truth be known and you put him in the back of your car, might pull a knife on you or show you he really wanted money for booze and women. There are enough programs in town that I can drive him too, in fact he probably knows where they are, but would rather prey on the conscience of those stopping at the stop sign.

neal · 03-04-09 8:10 pm

But if individuals aren't allowed to enjoy what they have earned, I'll guarantee that is unAmerican and antiChristian. How is that "antiChristian"? Just the term "enjoy" is more unchristian than socialized medicine or food stamps. Unless your wife works and makes more than you do I would think you would be better off under Obama than under W's atheist capitalist tax rates. Of course, if you quit paying your church tax that funds some of the non-producing members of our society just think how much more you would have to enjoy! Your country is more socialized than anything dreamed of here in my country. Is everybody taxed to the point of destitution up in the North Woods?

bob_2 · 03-04-09 10:23 pm

You'd have to ask Don, I haven't been living in Canada since we got married in 1973 so I have sort of lost touch with what goes in Canada.

elaine · 03-04-09 11:12 pm

Bob, when was the last time you picked up a homeless man if truth be known and you put him in the back of your car, might pull a knife on you or show you he really wanted money for booze and women. There are enough programs in town that I can drive him too, in fact he probably knows where they are, but would rather prey on the conscience of those stopping at the stop sign. Such a paranoid and denigrating view of those who are not seen as your "brother" is pathetic. There, but for the grace of God could be you, couldn't it? And which "programs" that are not funded would he go to? In case you've forgotten, there's no free lunch. Either the government picks up the tab or private, usually religious groups, operate these programs.

bob_2 · 03-04-09 11:44 pm

Salvation Army is active here in town with a shelter. Presbyterians sponsor a program. I don't have my community resource book in front of me. Ok, you as an 80 year old lady I'm sure would feel safe picking up unknown strangers at stop signs. Hitchikers too Elaine, you are taking some chances. Sorry, I might call a program and tell them someone is panhandling at such and such a stop sign or exit ramp, but you are asking for trouble picking them up not knowing what weapon may be being carried. St. Louis has had many car jackings, Elaine, you do what you want in Fresno.

bob_2 · 03-07-09 11:12 pm

Analysis: Obama recovery plans sowing some unease <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama offered his domestic-policy proposals as a "break from a troubled past." But the economic outlook now is more troubled than it was even in January, despite Obama's bold rhetoric and commitment of more trillions of dollars. And while his personal popularity remains high, some economists and lawmakers are beginning to question whether Obama's agenda of increased government activism is helping, or hurting, by sowing uncertainty among businesses, investors and consumers that could prolong the recession. Although the administration likes to say it "inherited" the recession and trillion-dollar deficits, the economic wreckage has worsened on Obama's still-young watch. Every day, the economy is becoming more and more an Obama economy. More than 4 million jobs have been lost since the recession began in December 2007 — roughly half in the past three months. Stocks have tumbled to levels not seen since 1997. They are down more than 50 percent from their 2007 highs and 20 percent since Obama's inauguration. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hzxMIm4EJQJddvV_ZHPkN1pw8nJwD96P7RC80" target=_top>http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5 hzxMIm4EJQJddvV_ZHPkN1pw8nJwD96P7RC80</a>

neal · 03-07-09 11:27 pm

Every day, the economy is becoming more and more an Obama economy. That's like switching captains after the Titanic hit the iceberg, then claiming it was the new captain's fault that the ship sank. Go back to Canada.

bob_2 · 03-08-09 12:02 am

Did the new Captain agressively apply for the job, making rhetorical promises about his ability to save the sinking ship???

neal · 03-08-09 7:33 am

No. And the other finalist for the job, McCain, denied that the ship had even hit the iceberg and was campaigning on a "full steam ahead on the same bearing" just like the captain that was at the helm when the disaster happened. I told our Board in October of 2007 that the Federal Reserve could lower rates to 1% (which they thought was WAY extreme at the time) but we would still go into recession. I told them it was structural and systemic- that the damage had already been done. Anytime you hear it written or said that nobody could have predicted this event is a bald faced liar. Even though we were a very slim minority some of us HAD seen the iceberg, HAD felt the bump as the ship struck it, and HAD concluded we were taking on water.

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