Appeal to Force

neal · 03-17-09 10:49 am

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Argumentum ad baculum (Latin for argument to the cudgel or appeal to the stick), also known as appeal to force, is an argument where force, coercion, or the threat of force, is given as a justification for a conclusion. It is a specific case of the negative form of an argument to the consequences. A fallacious logical argument based on argumentum ad baculum generally has the following argument form: <blockquote>If x accepts P as true, then Q. Q is a punishment on x. Therefore, P is not true.</blockquote> For example: <blockquote>If you are not a christian, God will torture you forever. Therefore, Christianity is correct.</blockquote> In other words, This is right because if you do not believe it, you will be harmed. This form of argument is an informal fallacy, because the attack Q may not necessarily reveal anything about the truth value of the premise P. This fallacy has been identified since the Middle Ages by many philosophers. This is a special case of argumentum ad consequentiam, or "appeal to consequences".<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_baculum" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_baculum</a> Neal if I were you I would be obsessing over the consequences of Atheistism. <blockquote>If Neal believes in the FSM, then God will raise Neal up and kill him. Therefore, believing in the FSM is not true.</blockquote> <blockquote>If Neal is an atheist, then God will raise Neal up and kill him. Therefore, being an atheist is not true.</blockquote> <blockquote>If Neal is a muslim, then God will raise Neal up and kill him. Therefore, being a muslim is not true.</blockquote> <blockquote>If Neal is a buddhist, then God will raise Neal up and kill him. Therefore, believing in The Buddha is not true.</blockquote> Bob, You can have all these beliefs but it does not do anything for your arguments. Telling me to be careful otherwise God is going to do X, Y, or Z does Nothing for convincing me of your position. Its an Appeal to Force. Its a threat. It comes under the Appeal to Emotion grouping of logical fallacies.

billdljr · 03-17-09 12:45 pm

Luke 12:2-5 2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. 3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. 4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hades, yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

neal · 03-17-09 3:15 pm

Bill The context to the scripture you quoted was a reminder to His disciples to not fear reprisals from the non-believers and is not a use of a threat to try to prove an unrelated point in a debate. The section that is my byline from Matthew 18 would be a good example of stating that if you don't believe what I'm saying is right then this is what will happen to you. By pointing out in a discussion about creation/evolution that somebody better be careful because of X then it is such a use. In a debate its attacking the person instead of the point (Ad hominem) in addition to being a fallacious Appeal to Force. Reminding your opponent about your personal belief that nonbelievers end up in the Lake of Fire does not score any points for the truth or falsehood of the point being discussed (creationism/evolution in that case).

bob_2 · 03-17-09 6:42 pm

I disagree, as you might expect. Belief in evolution ends in death and dust. It promises no more, does it?? Belief in Creation promises heavenly reward, though doesn't it. There are natural consequences to paths chosen. Does Evolution have something up it's sleeve that we haven't heard about???

bob_2 · 03-17-09 6:47 pm

If you depend on the love you have for your son to obey you not to go in the street, the reward is life. If he disobeys death. Choices have consequences. Even if you use logic and the son chooses to find out for himself, he could die due to natural consequences. Logic is not always the way to win the arguement or threat of destruction, but man has free will choice and has the results, his responsibility.

neal · 03-17-09 7:20 pm

I disagree, as you might expect. That was a highly probable outcome. Belief in evolution ends in death and dust. False. Accepting the fact of evolution doesn't involve metaphysical theories or philosophies. It makes the assertion that all known life on this planet evolved over a long period of time from a common ancestor. Evolution does not make claims about a possible afterlife. It also does NOT make claims about how the common ancestor originated (as far as I know. I think that the origin of the first ancestor is being studied by the biochemists or some other branch of science). and It promises no more, does it?? It doesn't make "promises". Belief in Creation promises heavenly reward, though doesn't it. False. Hindus believe things were created but they think you could come back as a fly on a pile of sacred cow dung. Native American Indians believe in a creator (the coyote) but they do not think there is a heaven like you imply. There are natural consequences to paths chosen. What does that mean? Define, expand or something cuz it make mean a lot of different things. Does Evolution have something up it's sleeve that we haven't heard about??? Does gravity have something up its sleeve?

neal · 03-17-09 7:35 pm

If you depend on the love you have for your son to obey you not to go in the street, the reward is life. If he disobeys death. Choices have consequences. You protect your child from being able to go into the street. You lock the front door. Have a fenced back yard. Etc Otherwise your other kids are taken away from you for your being an idiot and unsafe parent. However, if your kid is afraid of the monster under the bed and thinks its going to eat him you might play along let him sleep in bed with you or give him a night light to keep invisible things away. Even if you use logic and the son chooses to find out for himself, he could die due to natural consequences. You are talking about the street again? If so, you would be charged and your kids taken away. Look, it has been fairly well documented that a 2 ton Suburban crushes a kid. You also are not debating the point of the healthfulness of testing out the proposition that a 2 ton truck will squash a kid WITH THAT KID. You are not debating him you are telling him facts. Logic is not always the way to win the arguement or threat of destruction, I have told my kids about what I call "One mistake and you're dead" activities. Like free-climbing on the Flatirons of Boulder or sky diving etc. You can make the choice to do it, but if you make one mistake you might be dead. Mistakes happen. There are outcomes to choices but getting into a debate and crying that your deity is going to kill the opponent so be careful about your choice (false choice anyway) is NOT meaningful to winning the argument. ... man has free will choice and has the results, his responsibility. Those are propositions or premises that could be handled on a different thread.

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#1 03-17-09 10:49 am

Appeal to Force

#2 03-17-09 12:45 pm

Re: Appeal to Force

#3 03-17-09 3:15 pm

Re: Appeal to Force

#4 03-17-09 6:42 pm

Re: Appeal to Force

#5 03-17-09 6:47 pm

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#6 03-17-09 7:20 pm

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#7 03-17-09 7:35 pm

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