Monsanto

admin · 03-17-09 11:42 am

Giant agricultural/biochemical corporation creates GM seeds then sues you for patent infringement if said seeds cross-pollinate with your own crops via the wind. Discuss. <a href="http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Next-Battleground--The-by-Deb-Della-Piana-080713-916.html" target=_top>http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Next-Battlegr ound--The-by-Deb-Della-Piana-080713-916.html</a>

neal · 03-17-09 5:30 pm

It would open a lot of eyes if more people knew about what has been going on in the food industry over the last couple decades. We shop farmers markets in the summer. Whole Foods for what we can't get in the summer. Check out <a href="http://www.cornucopia.org/" target=_top>http://www.cornucopia.org/</a> for ideas and some rankings. Being involved in the markets I joked a couple years ago that if all the car makers in the world decided to merge Bush's administration wouldn't protest. Yet, the ONE deal that he fought last year was the Whole Foods/Wild Oats merger. Seemed to me they wanted to keep the small organic farms, dairies, and retailers weak and fractured in favor of the Monsanto's of the food industry. see... <a href="http://www.thedeal.com/newsweekly/community/a-new-direction.php" target=_top>http://www.thedeal.com/newsweekly/community/a-new- direction.php</a> I would highly recommend the article you posted.

elaine · 03-17-09 9:03 pm

Some of the problems are caused by government control of crops and the huge subsidies given large farmers. They are paid TO grow, and paid NOT to grow, depending on the markets and oversupply. Here in the Central valley of California, which is the largest agricultural producer in the nation, there will be far too little water allotted for the crops. This is done to protect the tiny fish upstream--an endangered species. Forget that humans may become endangered by decreased food supply.

roca · 03-18-09 3:36 pm

I only scanned the article but it seems it is written by someone who does not know much about agriculture. It does not mention the type of seed, which is peculiar. So I don't know which crop they are referring to but it is common that most of our crops are hybrids which means that a commercial farmer will not save seeds from his harvest to sown in spring because hybrids don't produce the same quality in the second generation. It also mentions birds or wind blowing seeds into a neigbors field saying: Even farmers who do not use Monsanto genetically-altered seeds and do not want to use them can fall victim to Monsanto's strong-arm tactics when water, wind or birds deposit the unwanted seeds in their fields. There is no way to visually tell one seed or plant from another; laboratory analysis is required. Monsanto will gladly send out its army of shady operatives to pull samples from farm fields for testing in order to protect its profits. You would certainly not have a worthwhile stand of any crop if it was grown by wind or birds planting the seeds and a neighbors field would often be a different crop anyway in which case the wind or bird planted seeds are not wanted anyway. It appears to be a bunch of fear mongering to me.

admin · 03-18-09 8:38 pm

<a href="http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/monsanto200805?printable=true&currentPage=all" target=_top>http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/0 5/monsanto200805?printable=true&currentPage=all</a>

roca · 03-18-09 8:54 pm

Reminds me of the way certain people of complain about Walmart.

neal · 03-18-09 9:29 pm

Reminds me of the way certain people of complain about Walmart. Ever hear of the Potato Famine in Ireland? Same type of thing these big guys are doing except now it's global. All you need is one break in the chain and it all falls down.

admin · 03-18-09 10:19 pm

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Reminds me of the way certain people of complain about Walmart.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> With a statement like that, I think you should explain 1) What are the complaints of these certain (you make it sound like a small minority) people; and 2) What is the connection between Wal-Mart and Monsanto besides people complaining. Unethical business practices? I'd agree with that! Greed, corruption, and sneaky deals? Sure! Ryan

roca · 03-19-09 7:19 pm

Okay Neal the fungi that caused the late blight of potatoes is the same thing as Monsanto. Clearly fear mongering. And Ryan very well showed the type of people who fear Monsanto and fear Walmart.

neal · 03-19-09 8:36 pm

And Ryan very well showed the type of people who fear Monsanto and fear Walmart. People who fear? I don't fear Walmart or Monsanto. Pointing to a potential significant future problem in the food chain is not synonymous with fearing them. I didn't fear the banking leverage and the 1999 repeal of the depression era banking laws. I DID prepare my personal interests and our fund for it. Fearing an event and preparing for an expected outcome are two different things. Hope your investments also made money in the last 18 months.

admin · 03-19-09 10:00 pm

Ron, I'm not impressed by your flippant attitude. Monsanto has been a huge problem that has negatively affected many lives in the past. Now they're into genetically modifying food with animal genes. That's messed up by itself. And then they allow those GM seeds to cross-pollinate with non-GM seeds, whether you believe it or not, and then sue the farmers who have no idea that their crops are now at risk of being impure. Legal? Yes. But that shows just how messed up or corrupt the governments have become in the US of A. Scary? Yes. What happens when the food supply is tainted beyond repair? Money makes men do evil things. To ignore these evil things or the possibility of these evil things to happen and then to pull the wool over our own eyes, as you seem to be doing, solves nothing. Monsanto is a problem. Also, look at the recent bills (HR875 and S425) being pushed through Congress and supported, at least in part, by Monsanto. Now, I see you've tied together the people who are against Monsanto with those against Wal-Mart. I asked you to explain two things, which you failed to do. Instead you replied with: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Clearly fear mongering. And Ryan very well showed the type of people who fear Monsanto and fear Walmart.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Not a very convincing dodge from your end. Ryan

admin · 03-19-09 10:05 pm

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:I only scanned the article but it seems it is written by someone who does not know much about agriculture.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I suggest reading the entire article.

bob · 03-19-09 10:07 pm

To show you how crazy some people get, one of my SDA friends will not buy a genetically altered tomato because it might have a gene from a hog, making it unclean.<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/rofl.gif" border=0> Man has altered plants and animals for centuries. Now we have the knowledge to improve the quality of both in a very short time frame. I, for one, am in favor of science improving our food chain. Long before Monsanto got into the business researchers were constantly improving our food chain. The process was very slow. Now that Monsanto and others are in the biochemistry business, those that oppose altering the food chain have found easy targets. I worked for Monsanto for 20 years. They have an outstanding record in the chemical industry. There will always be a few crazies that will oppose anything new.

admin · 03-19-09 10:13 pm

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:I worked for Monsanto for 20 years. They have an outstanding record in the chemical industry.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> So you know about the Superfund sites, pollution, shady practices, Agent Orange and ensuing deaths/problems, strong-armed legal tactics, suing the wrong guy but not apologizing, etc. Ryan

neal · 03-19-09 10:43 pm

To show you how crazy some people get, one of my SDA friends will not buy a genetically altered tomato because it might have a gene from a hog, making it unclean. That's what religion does. My father-in-law is a retired SDA minister. Former head of a division in Europe. Former missionary in asia. He has never eaten a piece of pork in his life. But, when he was having heart problems he goes to an SDA hospital and has a pig valve put in. Now he's part pig, but still rails against eating pig. If a three thousand year old passage says you're eating something that is of the wrong persuasion you don't even touch it. But if you are DYING, well, then, modern science has away around that! Just make it a part of you! You don't even have to eat it. We'll just cut your chest open and install it. The old text didn't say ANYTHING about INSERTING it and making it part of your organs. Why NO. It just said not to EAT it. What a joke. Its insanity. (Message edited by neal on March 19, 2009)

bob · 03-20-09 7:43 pm

Ryan said: "So you know about the Super fund sites, pollution, shady practices, Agent Orange and ensuing deaths/problems, strong-armed legal tactics, suing the wrong guy but not apologizing, etc." Are you blaming Monsanto for the polluting that has been done in United States? Yes, they among thousands of companies and, if you will, individuals have done their part to pollute the ground. When coal is mined, the run off pollutes streams and soil, gold mining causes soil pollution. Steel producers cause pollution. You name the manufacturer and there is a good possibility they pollute the ground. The sites you refer to number over a thousand. They just happen to be in larger concentration. A tremendous polluter is the agricultural industry. Farmers pour all kinds of chemicals on their land and pollute streams and lakes. I know of a beautiful lake in Southern Illinois that has become so polluted that people are not allowed to swim in it anymore. The cause, farmers. Agent Orange was produced for the military. Had Monsanto not produced it someone else would have. No manufacturer is lily white. I bet I can find pollution right there in Collegedale. The Little Debbie plant would be a great place to start my hunt. Why should Monsanto have to apologize for producing a product the government invented? Law suits are a national scourge. Companies are blamed and juries seem to most always side with the prosecution. Look at the cigarette industry. I know they held back information on their findings, but everyone has known for 50 years that they cause death. Consumers still wanted them and so it is today. Some never learn. Well, I don't know what the "etc" is, so I cannot comment.

bob · 03-20-09 7:59 pm

Neal, what boggles my mind is that Adventists teach that only the 10 commandments survived Calvary. Yet they pick two laws out of the trash heap and make them salvational issues. The unclean meat law and the tithing law, modified to be paid in shekels and made to cover all the flock to be paid to the GC. There is no way they can go back to father Abraham to gain an excuse to impose them. They are out in left field with only Ellen's word, whatever that is worth.

admin · 03-21-09 12:39 pm

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Are you blaming Monsanto for the polluting that has been done in United States?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Bob, what you did was take what I initially wrote, exaggerate my statement, and then draw conclusions from the exaggeration (you'd have to let Neal give us the real name of this fallacy)--this calls into question much of what you say. Anyway, I do blame Monsanto for some (lots) of pollution. Such blame is warranted. I'm sure you are aware of various incidence since you spent 20 years as an employee. If not, the information can be found. I blame Monsanto because the evidence shows that they have been responsible for pollution, poisoning people and their own employees, and so forth. Are other industries also responsible for pollution? You bet! Is McKee Foods? I'm sure they are. (In fact, Wolftever Creek in Collegedale is just nasty.) <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Why should Monsanto have to apologize for producing a product the government invented?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Beats me; I never said they had to apologize. However, I see no reason why they should not be held responsible for their actions from an ethical POV since holding them legally responsible for Agent Orange, for example, might get nowhere since the government itself used the defoliant. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Law suits are a national scourge.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Lawsuits are what will protect you, me, and our children. Ryan

bob · 03-21-09 5:16 pm

Like the fly said when he set on the mirror, that's one way to look at it.<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/lame.gif" border=0>

lijhakim · 03-21-09 8:28 pm

Neal, <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:My father-in-law is a retired SDA minister. Former head of a division in Europe. Former missionary in asia. He has never eaten a piece of pork in his life. But, when he was having heart problems he goes to an SDA hospital and has a pig valve put in. Now he's part pig, but still rails against eating pig.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I think you are being ridiculous. There were two big issues in eating clean meats -- they were not to eat blood or fat. A porcine valve is pretty much purified collagen, or ligamentous tissue. There is not much "pig" left in it. ------------------ Hubert F. Sturges .

neal · 03-21-09 9:53 pm

Hubb You are not even supposed to TOUCH them. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Clean and Unclean Animals Leviticus 11:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. 3 Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. 4 Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 5 And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 6 And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 7 And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you. ---- 24 “And by these you shall become unclean. Whoever touches their carcass shall be unclean until the evening, 25 and whoever carries any part of their carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean until the evening. 26 Every animal that parts the hoof but is not cloven-footed or does not chew the cud is unclean to you. Everyone who touches them shall be unclean. 27 And all that walk on their paws, among the animals that go on all fours, are unclean to you. Whoever touches their carcass shall be unclean until the evening, 28 and he who carries their carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean until the evening; they are unclean to you.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

elaine · 03-21-09 10:04 pm

How is it possible to have edible meat that is 100% free of both blood and fat? Beef and sheep, the major meats of the Israelites, both contain fat and blood. So, how do they differ from pig? So, it's the "amount" of pig that is destestable: in the heart, O.K.; in the stomach: abomination? Were the Levitical dietary laws based solely on health reasons? If so, what are the differences between trout and catfish?

john8verse32 · 03-21-09 11:04 pm

pigs may have been declared unclean for several reasons: 1) they love to wallow in the mud, and there wasn't going to be any mud for "40" yrs as the hebrews got lost on their alleged walkabout in the Sinai 2) while both goats and pigs will eat garbage, pigs make a mess... while goats clean things up and 3) with their pointy feet pigs would have been a liability schlepping about the Sinai desert sands...so Moses told the people not to take pigs with them...and declared them "dirty" but the sanction went beyond that!!! Everyone who touches them shall be unclean. ...including the surgeon who installs pig valves in SDA hearts????? and the guy who receives the valve? and the farmer who raised the pig? and the butcher who slaughtered it? and the truck drive who delivered the meat? it just pointsout the stupidity of us keeping ancient Heeb rules, since we pick and choose which ones to bother with... most of us do not worry about sending our wives out of camp for a week each month... most of us do not worry about wearing garmets containing two types of fabric..ie, spandex to keep our cotton shorts up.... most of us do not worry about planting two types of veggies in our gardens..... most of us no longer try to sell our daughters for the best price possible.... most of us don't attack our neighbors, kill their menfolk, but keep thevirgins to use...

bob · 03-22-09 12:24 am

In all fairness, The scripture was telling the Israelites not to touch the carcases of unclean animals, but If they did they would only be unclean until evening. The way I take it, if they touched it right before sundown, }which was evening, they would be clean in a few minutes.<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0> So, the longest the person who got the pigs heart valve would be unclean would be till sundown. Ah, makes perfect cents to me. Perform the surgery right before sundown and no one has to worry about. And hey the surgeon would be wearing gloves. This would automatically absolve him. Funny that they had to wash their clothes if they carried the carcass, but it didn't even tell them to wash their hands if they just touched it. At any rate Ellen said that the ceremonial part of the law was nailed to the Cross and not binding on SDAs. Huuumm,(that's a long hum) wonder where she came up with the idea they can't eat pigs. Didn't I just say she said that law was nailed to the Cross? Wonder if she kept a kosher kitchen?

john8verse32 · 03-22-09 10:01 am

kosher kitchen? would that include Maine lobstaahs and oyestaahs? how do you drain the blood outta them b4 you boil them to death and eat them?

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