Religion and Civil Society

don · 06-05-09 9:21 pm

Religion and Civil Society This thread continues a discussion begun on another thread found here: <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=13&post=5529#POST5529" target="_blank">http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=13&post=5529#POST5529</a> What do the facts reveal regarding religion and civil society? Here is a summary of the science reported:<blockquote>Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies by Gregory Paul Paul's report of 18 nations which seem to indicate that the less religious nations have a better track record for moral behavior. <a href="http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html" target="_blank">http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html</a> ____________________________________ Religious Cosmologies and Homicide Rates among Nations - A Closer Look By Gary F. Jensen In the same, Jensen provides some peer review of Paul's study. <a href="http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2006-7.pdf" target="_blank">http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2006-7.pdf</a> ____________________________________ Paul's study obtained national exposure probably because of its controversial assertion. In the arena of peer-reviewed science, reviewers assert that his study has some serious flaws. Pollster George H. Gallup, Jr. has weighed in on Paul's study: Dogma Bites Man, On the New & Biased Research Linking Faith & Social Ills <a href="http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-10-061-r" target="_blank">http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php? id=18-10-061-r</a> ____________________________________ It seems that critics have found much to criticize Gregory Paul's work. Debunking Gregory S. Paul <a href="http://www.verumserum.com/?p=25" target="_blank">http://www.verumserum.com/?p=25</a> ____________________________________ Ah, isn't that what makes science so powerful; the peer review process. In the next post, I will highlight the points of criticism raised against Paul's study.</blockquote>

don · 06-05-09 9:50 pm

Paul's Work Under Scrutiny Here are some of the concern's expressed:<blockquote>1) Paul is not qualified to do a statistical study. 2) Paul did not provide any depth of analysis regarding religious life. 3) He did not use multivariate analysis; a tool always used in such studies. "Paul has made strong claims about the effect of religion upon society without examining all the other factors that might explain the phenomena he wrote about." 4) He failed to include Russia or India (and other countries) in his study without adequate explanation. Including them would have brought in very different results. Eg. Apparently, Russia's crime rate is three times that of the U.S. 5) His data collection timeline is unclear. 6) He did not provide a thorough examination of the literature regarding his hypothesis. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:...survey findings based on carefully designed scales and penetrating questions show that spiritual commitment serves both as a brake on anti-social activities and a powerful impetus to pro-social, even sacrificial, behavior and attitudes. And the deeper the spiritual commitment, the more pronounced the effects. Indeed, a mountain of survey data from the Gallup and other survey organizations shows that when educational background and other variables are held constant, persons who are “highly spiritually committed” are far less likely to engage in antisocial behavior than those less committed. They have lower rates of crime, excessive alcohol use, and drug addiction than other groups.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote></blockquote>To read George H. Gallup, Jr.'s assessment go to this link: <a href="http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-10-061-r" target="_blank">http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php? id=18-10-061-r</a> .

don · 06-07-09 2:25 pm

Murders Per Capita of Countries Ranked<blockquote>Rank Countries: Amount # 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people # 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people # 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people # 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people # 5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people # 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people # 7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people # 8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people # 9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people # 10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people # 11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people # 12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people # 13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people # 14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people # 15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people # 16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people # 17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people # 18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people # 19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people # 20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people # 21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people # 22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people # 23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people # 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people # 25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people # 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people # 27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people # 28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people # 29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people # 30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people # 31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people # 32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people # 33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people # 34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people # 35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people # 36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people # 37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people # 38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people # 39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people # 40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people # 41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people # 42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people # 43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people # 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people # 45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people # 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people # 47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people # 48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people # 49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people # 50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people # 51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people # 52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people # 53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people # 54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people # 55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people # 56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people # 57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people # 58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people # 59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people # 60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people # 61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people # 62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people DEFINITION: Total recorded intentional homicides, completed. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Per capita figures expressed per 1,000 population. SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention) <a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita&b_map=1" target=_top>http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_perc ap-crime-murders-per-capita&b_map=1</a> </blockquote>

don · 06-07-09 2:34 pm

Church attendance (most recent) by country<blockquote># 1 Nigeria: 89% # 2 Ireland: 84% # 3 Philippines: 68% # 4 South Africa: 56% # 5 Poland: 55% # 6 Puerto Rico: 52% # 7 Portugal: 47% # 7 Slovakia: 47% # 9 Mexico: 46% # 10 Italy: 45% # 11 United States: 44% # 11 Belgium: 44% # 13 Peru: 43% # 13 Turkey: 43% # 15 India: 42% # 16 Canada: 38% # 17 Brazil: 36% # 18 Netherlands: 35% # 19 Uruguay: 31% # 19 Venezuela: 31% # 21 Austria: 30% # 22 United Kingdom: 27% # 23 Spain: 25% # 23 Argentina: 25% # 23 Chile: 25% # 26 Croatia: 22% # 27 Hungary: 21% # 27 France: 21% # 29 Romania: 20% # 30 Switzerland: 16% # 30 Australia: 16% # 30 Lithuania: 16% # 33 Czech Republic: 14% # 33 Korea, South: 14% # 35 Taiwan: 11% # 36 Ukraine: 10% # 36 Bulgaria: 10% # 36 Moldova: 10% # 36 Georgia: 10% # 40 China: 9% # 41 Armenia: 8% # 42 Serbia and Montenegro: 7% # 43 Azerbaijan: 6% # 43 Belarus: 6% # 45 Denmark: 5% # 45 Latvia: 5% # 45 Norway: 5% # 48 Sweden: 4% # 48 Finland: 4% # 48 Estonia: 4% # 48 Iceland: 4% # 52 Japan: 3% # 53 Russia: 2% Weighted average: 26.2% DEFINITION: The percentage of adults surveyed who claimed that they attend Church services one or more times per week. <a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-church-attendance" target=_top>http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-reli gion-church-attendance</a> </blockquote>

don · 06-07-09 2:46 pm

Abortions (per capita) (most recent) by country <blockquote>Rank Countries: Amount # 1 Russia: 19.2885 per 1,000 people # 2 Bulgaria: 13.0232 per 1,000 people # 3 Hungary: 7.69032 per 1,000 people # 4 Cuba: 7.39958 per 1,000 people # 5 Sweden: 4.16452 per 1,000 people # 6 United States: 4.0945 per 1,000 people # 7 Norway: 2.9767 per 1,000 people # 8 New Zealand: 2.76902 per 1,000 people # 9 Iceland: 2.71958 per 1,000 people # 10 Japan: 2.69214 per 1,000 people # 11 France: 2.65644 per 1,000 people # 12 Israel: 2.47077 per 1,000 people # 13 Italy: 2.30861 per 1,000 people # 14 Canada: 2.15056 per 1,000 people # 15 Finland: 1.8924 per 1,000 people # 16 Germany: 1.18811 per 1,000 people # 17 India: 0.552036 per 1,000 people # 18 Greece: 0.113986 per 1,000 people # 19 Poland: 0.0144976 per 1,000 people Weighted average: 4.2 per 1,000 people <a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-health-abortions-per-capita" target=_top>http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-h ealth-abortions-per-capita</a> </blockquote>

don · 06-07-09 3:03 pm

Statistics: More Questions, Few Answers Comparing statistics generates the question: "Why the difference?" For examples:<blockquote>Russia ranks #5/62 in per capita murders, last in church attendance and first in abortions. Japan ranks #60/62 in per capita murders, #52/53 in church attendance, and #10/19 in per capita abortions. South Africa ranks #2/62 in per capita murders and #4/53 in church attendance. These statistics do not deal with personal values and faith. It would be interesting to compare profession of faith with acts of violence.</blockquote> .

neal · 06-08-09 9:29 am

Here are some of the concern's expressed: It seems that the critics missed the subtitle to the study: <blockquote>A First Look</blockquote> For a first look, it has succeeded. If you google the title inside quotation marks you will find 477 results. From PZ Myers to Scientific American to Apologeticspress.com to sermons on hopeuu.org to iamachristiantoo.org As far as including Russia & India? The researcher was looking at prosperous democracies. How, exactly does Russia and India fit into that criteria? The bottom line is that the claim that 'religion' is a net positive for society as evidenced by crime rates, abortion, and dysfunctional families does not stand up to the evidence.

neal · 06-08-09 10:18 am

Don On another thread you posted some information about the Amish response to the school house killings by Charles Roberts. <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=13&post=5543#POST5543" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=13&post=5543#POST5543</a> You asked How would you respond to the Roberts family?. First, the "family" being referenced are the killer's parents. As the son was 32 at the time of the shootings I would accommodate their gestures when offered if it helped them. Personally, I would make more of an effort to help his wife and children as they were also victims of this deranged lunatic. However, looking at the upbringing of the shooter/molester it fits into the thesis of the christian-violence correlation. He was home schooled. He did not go to college that I am aware of, so he was severely lacking in socialization skills. His mother worked putting on Bible plays. His dad was a retired cop. The shooter, in notes left to his wife, claimed that he had molested when he was young. He claimed he was mad at God for the death of a baby girl several years before. The guy needed a shrink in the worst way. He needed help to escape his religious demons IMO. Like a former contributor said about the suicide note left by her son, "My religion drove me crazy". Seems like this guy's upbringing/religion drove him into lunacy and murder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Carl_Roberts_IV (Message edited by neal on June 08, 2009)

neal · 06-08-09 11:12 am

Comparing statistics generates the question: "Why the difference?" Because its not the religion or lack thereof. Its class stratification. Cultural history. Who the enemy is. Education. How apocalyptic the beliefs are. etc. For the "Bible Belt" it seems to me that its the fact that its left-over english/scots and North/South that that is a root cause. The religion is a rationalization. If a country has been defeated, or has been persecuted, they tend to fall back on old arguments. The White South is still bitter about the civil war. As Obama let slip, they rely on their guns and religion. If God is coming next week or next month or tomorrow why get an education? If the government outlaws marijuana but the Bible says all seed bearing plants are for mankind what's wrong with being a large scale pot distributor? The 80 year old that got twenty years a few weeks ago? Why, his son is supposedly a pillar of his church and current manager of the distribution chain. His argument was exactly the seed bearing plant argument! Communities that teach that God's Law trumps democratic governments will have every hairbrained thing you can imagine going on. Polygamy, marijuana farming, wage slavery (anti-unions like Mckee's), incest (if it was good for Adam and Eve's kids), child brides (completely Biblical), etc. Even simple things like animal cruelty. When I was growing up in Collegedale a leader of a local church took a litter of kittens, put them in a burlap sack and threw them in the river to drown. To me that was abhorrent. And that was back when I was a believer going to church paying my tithe like a any upstanding young SDA. Why did it bother me and not the church leader? Now, in many jurisdictions that is an arrestable offense for animal cruelty. In a part of China its a delicacy to spoon out the brain matter from a living monkey and eat it. Or eat domesticated dogs. What westerner in our current time period isn't disgusted by that? These people that home-school to keep their kids from the evil influence of the "World" are creating a dire good vs evil mentality. Its anti-social. We can see some of the extreme results in the murder rampage here in Colorado last year and the Amish killings in PA. What we need is an asteroid that is screaming toward earth to teach humans that fellow humans are not the enemy. We are all on the same rock in a far corner of the universe. We need to work together. Killing each other for political or religious differences is barbaric and so medieval. Its not the Confederate South against the Yankees any more. In the sixties I was able to have a personal vist with the governor of Georgia. I was young so he gave me a flag set. It had three flags- State of Georgia flag, the US flag, and the Confederate flag. All in a nice little stand. Multivariate is an understatement when trying to figure out what makes for differing crime rates. However, stating that somebody is a believer says nothing for their propensity to commit murder, steal things, or go for revenge. As the southern politician recently said when he was caught visiting hookers: We all sin everyday! That attitude is dangerous. To think you can just go home and pray and be forgiven undermines honor and duty to our fellow humans and the natural world. I'm sure the muslim suicide bombers/pilots are regular mosque attendees. So what. I would, and do, trust regular readers of Plato, Hume, Paine and Dawkins much more than regular readers of the Bible. They are much more predictable and honest from my experience. (Message edited by neal on June 08, 2009)

neal · 06-08-09 12:19 pm

Some hunger & poverty stats: <a href="http://frac.org/pdf/poverty08.pdf" target=_top>http://frac.org/pdf/poverty08.pdf</a> <a href="http://frac.org/pdf/2007rank_food_insecurity.pdf" target=_top>http://frac.org/pdf/2007rank_food_insecurity.pdf</a> What I find interesting, politically, is the ability of the far right to get voters divided on social issues which do not affect them personally (gay marriage, gay rights, abortion) in order to cause them to vote against their personal economic interests. The poor sections of the country are the anti-tax, anti-big government voters but are actually the ones receiving the disproportionate share of food stamps and other welfare subsidies including government subsidized power thru the massive TVA system. Its the liberal-leaning, less religious sections of the country picking up the tab for the religious areas. People like Rush Limbaugh who make $40,000,000 per year convincing the blue collar guy with the confederate flag in the truck window to vote for lowering taxes because somehow raising Rush's taxes will bring on Soddom & Gomorrah. Like my by-line says in quoting Seneca The Younger (4 BC to 65 AD), the rulers find religion useful.

don · 06-08-09 6:42 pm

The bottom line is that the claim that 'religion' is a net positive for society History teaches the same. It was not agnostics/atheists who led the crusades, the inquisition, etc. However, we also have some evils against humanity perpetrated by non-theists, as well. Stalin is probably the worst example. Along with the Soviet Union as an entity. It is obvious that religion is not always a positive, wholesome thing and that the vast majority of agnostics/atheists are not the arch enemies of civic order. I submit that:<ul><li> people who believe in no violence will be less violent whether they are religious or not. <LI>People who believe in helping their neighbors will create a healthier civic society than those who don't. <LI>People who believe in forgiveness and love will, generally speaking, be more forgiving and loving.</li></ul>"Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." (James 1:27.) .

john8verse32 · 06-08-09 8:04 pm

People who believe in forgiveness and love will, generally speaking, be more forgiving and loving. wow!!! deep!!! I don't like onions. and I'm glad I don't like onions. because if I did, I'd probably eat the things, and I hate them. ******************************** what if even animals have a moral code they live by...and all without belief in the Hebrew God!!! would this suggest that if behavior among animals has "evolved" to measurable social levels that it is not a far stretch to believe that humans can evolve into moral beings without divine guidance? or do the animals get some sort of divine guidance to produce the following evidence ? <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html" target=_top>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/ Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html</a>

neal · 06-09-09 9:09 am

<blockquote>* people who believe in no violence will be less violent whether they are religious or not. * People who believe in helping their neighbors will create a healthier civic society than those who don't. * People who believe in forgiveness and love will, generally speaking, be more forgiving and loving.</blockquote> I agree, obviously. The difference is that you can immerse yourself in the teachings of The Buddha or the sayings of Confucius or the writings of Ingersoll or the writings of Hume or the writings of Paine or the material from many other secular philosophers and produce a 'good' citizen of this planet without resorting to threats of damnation, the falsehood of a young earth, the witch doctor-like teachings of the Torah, or the rape, human sacrifice, cannabalism, and genocide found in the so-called Holy Scriptures.

neal · 06-09-09 9:10 am

John Thanks for the link to the Telegraph article about the animal morals study being done here at CU.

neal · 06-09-09 9:13 am

Don I would add that the sayings of the Buddha and Confucius are more civil than the teachings of Jesus. Ingersoll's writings are much more peaceful, loving, etc than the Bible. I think you would like his material very much.

don · 06-09-09 10:10 am

Buddha, Confucius, Ingersoll and Jesus The Adventism I promote views all truth as a gift from God. Thus Buddha, Confucius, yes, even Ingersoll, can provide expressions of the mind of God. Adventism's dual emphasis of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus can be understood as moral precepts and faith in Jesus. The great moralists of the world reflect the moral nature of God, IMO. Faith in Jesus, (for this believer), provides the necessary integration and spiritual involvement of those moral precepts in one's life. (I continue to promote Jesus as the unique Son of God and Savior of the world.) Bill Gates has not always been the charitable man he is today. It seems that about the time he met his wife his charitable activity became noted. I wonder what affect she has had on him. See this link for more on the humanitarian side of Gates: <a href="http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=160&post=56971#POST56971" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=160&post=56971#POST56971</a> We can learn much from those who apply their resources to the ills of humanity whatever their worldview. .

neal · 06-09-09 11:19 am

The Adventism I promote views all truth as a gift from God. You are promoting a belief that disrespects most cultures, their history, teachings, philosophies, and gods. Its pretty cocky and absurd to take credit for your god's contributions when Egyptian and Indian cultures, for example, were begun before God even created this planet. If I were from some other culture in this world and a christian told me that everything good in my culture came from their God I would be pretty upset at that attitude and claim. And rightly so. Very conceited, IMO. Christians have gone so far as to deface ancient monuments in India because the philosophy written in stone was from before the beginning of christianity. Since the monuments espoused christian-like philosophy the christians tried to remove the evidence. If anything, Jesus taught many principles of The Buddha. Philosophies of the Far East were well-known in Hellenic Times. There was much trade and even ambassadors from mediterranean countries.

neal · 06-09-09 11:23 am

BTW, when The Buddha was teaching the poor tribe of Yahweh was locked up in Babylon praying for their messiah. Five hundred years later Jesus is teaching the message of Buddha and 2000 years later his followers are claiming the moral philosophy of Buddha came from the Jewish God? How stupid do you think people are? On second thought there is no need to answer that question. .

don · 06-09-09 12:02 pm

Its pretty cocky and absurd to take credit for your god's contributions when Egyptian and Indian cultures, for example, were begun before God even created this planet. You seem to be intentionally provincial in how you think about the God I promote. I prefer the Apostle Paul's approach where he utilizes the divine concepts of his audience to promote a view of the maker of the universe. Your conception of my understanding of God is too small. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> How stupid do you think people are? I believe that people are quite capable of thinking in a larger capacity than you have expressed. My understanding of God cannot be relegated to adjectives such as "Jewish" God or "Christian" God. The God of all people cannot be made provincial. I believe that all systems of religion provide moral structure to their societies. The apostle Paul asserts that the Jewish legal system served as a disciplinarian until Christ. I believe the same can be said for all systems. Rather than disrespecting these cultures, I view their positive ideas as expressions from the eternal God. In fact, I view your positive ideas as that, as well. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> .

neal · 06-09-09 12:46 pm

The apostle Paul asserts that the Jewish legal system served as a disciplinarian until Christ. I believe the same can be said for all systems. Paul, in retrospect, was very provincial because he was ignorant about the age, size, and shape of this planet. You know as well as I that he claimed to have spread the Gospel to all nations in his own lifetime. <blockquote>Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations (Romans 16:25-26). Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world (Romans 1:5,8). We know that Paul traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul (Romans 15:24-28). During this time the other apostles weren't sitting around idle; all the apostles went abroad and preached the gospel to everyone (Acts 8:1-5,14,25); and there is much proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions (Acts 9:31). The following verses all fulfil Acts 1:8. Men from every nation heard Peter preach the gospel (Acts 2:5,9-11,14); and Peter said it was published throughout Judaea (Acts 10:37, 1 Pet.4:6). Paul says he fully preached the gospel (Romans 15:19; 16:19), and it appeared to all men (Titus 2:11.), and it was preached and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16). In Romans 10:18, the word "world" is oikumene, same as Mat.24:24, and the word "earth" is ge, same as Acts 1:8. In Romans 16:25-26, the word "nations" is ethnos, same as Mark 13:10. In Colossians 1:6, the word "world" is kosmos, same as Mark 16:15. In Colossians 1:23, the word "creature" is ktisis, same as Mark 16:15. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached. Crysostom (375) wrote, "Therefore He added moreover, 'And this gospel shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come,' of the downfall of Jerusalem. For in proof that He meant this, and that before the taking of Jerusalem the gospel was preached, hear what Paul saith, 'Their sound went into all the earth;' and again, 'The gospel which was preached to every creature which is under Heaven.' Which also is a very great sign of Christ's power, that in twenty or at most thirty years the word had reached the ends of the world. 'After this therefore,' saith He, 'shall come the end of Jerusalem.' For that He intimates this was manifested by what follows." Eusebius (325) wrote, "Thus, under the influence of heavenly power, and with the divine co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly illumined the whole world; and straightway, in accordance with the divine Scriptures, the voice of the inspired evangelists and apostles went forth through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world." (Book II, Ch.III.). ...</blockquote> <a href="http://www.meetup.com/emergentcharlotte/messages/boards/thread/5173121" target=_top>http://www.meetup.com/emergentcharlotte/messages/b oards/thread/5173121</a> Additionally, Jeremiah says that the Law of God would not be taught by men under the New Covenant. The Law of God would be written on our hearts and all would know it. Therefore, either Jeremiah was a false prophet or the Torah did not discipline till Christ came as Paul said or, since Jesus' era the teaching of God's Law is useless. I'll go with Jeremiah was a false prophet, Paul just made stuff up out of thin air as is evidenced by his claiming to have preached the Gospel to all nations, and the teaching of God's Law is useless.

john8verse32 · 06-09-09 1:38 pm

How stupid do you think people are? probably less "stupid"than ignorant...either willfully or otherwise "ignoring" things they don'twant to be confronted with... and I bet the vast majority of Christians don't even know how much older the teachings of Buddah are than what they believe Jesus started. so lets forgive folks for ... ........"they know not what they do"....

don · 06-15-09 2:16 pm

Some have pointed to the high level of professed faith and the high level of crime both found in the United States. They assert that faith does not reduce society's crime. I have come across another assertion. It goes like this: <blockquote>The reason why faith does not help reduce crime in America is because of the separation of church and state. You will note that strong Islamic states have reduced crime rates. It is because America does not use religion to control society that the crime rate is higher. Many of the secular society's with low crime rate have developed their secularism in the context of state churches.</blockquote> .

elaine · 06-15-09 8:37 pm

Could it not also be because the U.S. is most armed society in the world? We supply arms to more nations than any other. Easy accessibility to guns has given us the huge number of homicides.

bob_2 · 06-15-09 9:28 pm

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

elaine · 06-15-09 10:47 pm

Bob, get a new slogan, that is utterly too old! It is much harder to kill as many people in a few minutes with a knife than with an AK-47.

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#18 06-09-09 11:23 am

Re: Religion and Civil Society

#19 06-09-09 12:02 pm

Re: Religion and Civil Society

#20 06-09-09 12:46 pm

Re: Religion and Civil Society

#21 06-09-09 1:38 pm

Re: Religion and Civil Society

#22 06-15-09 2:16 pm

Re: Religion and Civil Society

#23 06-15-09 8:37 pm

Re: Religion and Civil Society

#24 06-15-09 9:28 pm

Re: Religion and Civil Society

#25 06-15-09 10:47 pm

Re: Religion and Civil Society

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