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Roman Catholic critic DEFENDS the active, 7th day, NC Sabbath, as promoted by Tom Norris:
He says that: "Jesus’ New Covenant Sabbath as articulated by Tom Norris is very refreshing and exciting..."
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Question for Sal:
Hi Sal:
Thanks for all you do for Christianity by defending the Gospel against the SDA heresy.
Did you see how Tom Norris ran from a questioner when the questioner gave him Bible verses that completely disproved sabbath keeping?
What a joke.
He's a dishonest SDA for sure.
Since he couldn't answer Col. 2:16-17 and Rom. 14:5 he gave an absurd answer.
Basically he said that the questioner was right that the current SDA way of observing the sabbath is wrong but that he knows the true way to keep the sabbath which isn't obsolete.
He invented the "NC sabbath" as if such a thing actually exists!
Even other SDAs know that he's not being honest with the Bible.
What a load of garbage this Norris fellow is pedaling.
Your Friend,
T.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
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Sal’s Answer: Dear Brother Thomas:
I couldn’t disagree with you more concerning Tom Norris.
I respect his opinion.
I have found him to be an intelligent, forthright, honest gentleman.
I consider him a credit to the SDA Church.
He takes very courageous stands on the Sabbath and the Investigative Judgment, because of this he has been much maligned by his fellow SDA’s on this site.
The traditional SDA’s, or as Brother Tom calls them TSDA’s, try to blunt the force of what he has to say by attacking his character instead of dealing honestly with his arguments. I have suffered the same fate at their hands.
Brother Tom’s explanation of the New Covenant or Gospel Sabbath is very interesting.
I would have no problem keeping this Sabbath of activity and good works.
I find this Sabbath one I could keep in good conscience.
The SDA’s on this site promote the Old Covenant Sabbath of inactivity. That Sabbath was only given to the Israelites never to the Church.
“You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses” (Nehemiah 9:13-14 NIV).
“Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, which, if a man does, he shall live by them. Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them” (Ezekiel 20:10-12 NKJV).
This Old Covenant Sabbath emphasized rest in accordance with the commandment.
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy” (Exodus 20:8-11 NASB; see also Deuteronomy 5:12-15).
If one failed to be inactive on the Sabbath his violation was met with death. “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death” (Exodus 35:2 NASB).
“Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.’ So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died” (Numbers 15:32-36 NKJV).
Jesus’ New Covenant Sabbath as articulated by Tom Norris is very refreshing and exciting.
I pray that the TSDA’s will recognize this and repudiate the Old Covenant Sabbath promoted by the Pharisees.
“At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, ‘Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!’” (Matthew 12:1-2 NKJV).
Jesus very clearly said that he does not observe the Old Covenant Sabbath of inactivity. Jesus and his Father observe a Sabbath marked by activity just as Brother Tom explained. “But Jesus answered them, ‘My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.’” (John 5:17 NKJV).
So let’s not be too hard on Brother Tom. He’s the last SDA to dodge a legitimate question.
God Be With You,
Brother Sal
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Tom,
Thank you for taking the time to do this for people.
I have a single question about the Sabbath. It is actually more of a clarifying question after reading your other answers.
I am a former SDA member myself. I want to ask you to answer a single question, if you would please.
Are you saying that the Sabbath day of Saturday is correct, but the manner in which SDA's preach of what to do and how others are condemned is false?
Or are you saying that the Sabbath day as Saturday is wrong as well?
I understand the shortcomings and misguidance of the SDA church so I do not want to hear more about that please.
I mean no offense, I just grew up in the church and left as an adult so I am well aware of their false teachings.
I only wish to hear your clarification while answering my question.
Thank you so much, Tom.
Best,
Mike
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -Day-3.htm
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Tom Norris Answered:
Mike, the SDA’s are CORRECT to teach that Sunday is false and that only the 7th day can be the weekly Sabbath for the church.
So the SDA’s do have the correct day, but the wrong doctrine. Just like the Pharisees in the Gospels.
Let me know if I can be of further assistance.
Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform
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Mike replied:
Thank you again, Tom.
I have been reading more of your posts and I must say that your analyses and knowledge are incredible and are very helpful to me as I go through scripture looking for answers.
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Cadge, I'm new here and you were asking tom a question. sorry.
Thanks for the link, l-miller. No apology necessary. I'm not as fussy as i used to be about that. (My apologies to Don sands. Wish he were back on here; sure enjoyed his input.)
Anyway...
The Sabbath questions are endless it seems. However, if the Rabbinical Jews gravitated from the Lunar sabbath to the seventh day Roman calendar, then it may be why Paul does not reinforce the keeping of one particular day in Romans 14. A question that I have presented before was, "Why, if the believers he speaks about are baptized into the New Covenant Church, were they not informed on keeping the seventh day Sabbath at that time? Why does he rather say that some keep one day or another and others keep every day alike, and that they are not to be judged for their conviction?"
Then also, if the Kairite Jews tried to reform the Rabbinical Jews back to the original Lunar sabbath, but they saw no need to repent of it, then perhaps it is because ones salvation is not about keeping a day, but rather overcoming inherited and cultivated traits through the power of the Holy spirit (Rom 8:13, 1Cor 3:17,17)and thereby coming more into oneness with the heart of God. We are saved individually, not corporately.
Then again, when Isaiah tells us that "It shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD", then one would be led to believe that the Lunar Sabbath that was from the beginning was to be included in the restoration of all things.
Was the Sabbath given to the Israel that was situated in the Middle east the Lunar sabbath which can be kept at the same time around the world, or was it the seventh day kept today by Jews and SDA's,? It seems, by Paul's revelation in his letter to the Romans, that in the interim from the Cross until the restoration of all things, that God is not holding anyone to a particular day, and even more so, that it is not a requirement of salvation.
This would lend much gravity to Bob2's argument on the day issue.
What is necessary is coming to learn "the way, the truth, and the life" because it has much to do with our future positions. But that's another subject.
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Bob, as usual, you missed the point.
Do you understand that a very outspoken SDA critic, who is also a Roman Catholic, has endorsed the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath?
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-52014 … ts/Sal.htm
Apparently the Gospel Sabbath is not so difficult to understand as you pretend. Honest people, from all denominations, can go to the Gospels and read the words of Jesus about the reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath and follow him.
Ha! If a Roman Catholic can embrace the active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath, why not the SDA’s? Why not everyone that claims to follow Christ for Eternal Life?
Bob2 said: Tom, you have to throw out the old and new covenants to get your interpretation.
Tom said: First off, this doctrine about an active, reformed, 7th day Sabbath, is not “my” interpretation. Rather, it comes directly from Christ in all four Gospels. And so too the point about the Priesthood of all believers, which is also an important part of this NC Sabbath doctrine that Christ teaches.
While the OC doctrine of the Sabbath, and the Levitical Priesthood, were both “abolished” by Christ, they are both replaced with the NC working Sabbath, as well as the Priesthood of ALL believers.
So there is a clear transition taking place in the Gospels as the NC Sabbath replaces the OC Sabbath. The NC Sabbath is not being “abolished” in the Gospels, only reformed in a remarkable manner.
Bob2 quoted Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Tom said: If you want to understand the Gospel Sabbath, you must go to Christ in the Gospels and let him teach you. Quoting random passages from the NT is not sufficient to refute the clear and repeated Sabbath teachings of Christ in all four Gospels. Sorry.
In fact, there is nothing that anyone can quote that would refute what Jesus so clearly teaches about the doctrine of the NC Sabbath.
Bob2 said: The heart of the old Covenant is the Law, the heart of the Law is the Sabbath, a symbol given only to the Jews to keep.
Tom said: The heart of the NC is faith in Christ and his Gospel teachings, which includes his amazing doctrine about the active, reformed, 7th day Sabbath,- where all are priests, and all have an EXEMPTION from the 4th commandment. Thus work is no longer prohibited on the Gospel Sabbath. This NC Sabbath could not be clearer; it is beyond refutation. It is amazing that it has not been articulated much sooner in church history.
Moreover, anyone that embraces Christ, a Jew, must be born again as a spiritual Jew so as to become an “inward” Jew; understanding the history of God’s people and their Messiah, and realizing that the Gospel trumps all Law.
The OC is Jewish and so too the Gospel, even though the NC is very different from the OC in a number of ways. Thus it should not come as a surprise that there is still some form of Sabbath for the church, even a reformed one. Those that follow Christ today, will also follow his correct version of the Sabbath and no other.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Bob2 said: Rodriguez should see this as not so hermeneutically hard.
Tom said: Ha! It is very hard for any SDA leader or theologian to understand the scriptures. They have spent too many years promoting their false views about Colossians, Galatians, and so many other passages and doctrines,- that they don’t want to admit they have been wrong all these years. They would rather live in a delusional world of religious double-talk than deal honestly with the facts.
In other words, they are too proud to repent.
So they double-talk and pretend Colossians is still perplexing in the 21st century, when they know that Dr. B, a true expert on the Sabbath, cannot be refuted. Today, there is no question that Colossians is referring to the weekly 7th day Sabbath, just like Canright said so long ago.
If the SDA’s were honest and true, they would admit their errors; confess that the official SDA position has been wrong all these years, even apologizing to D. M. Canright. Of course his conclusion was wrong, and so too the legions that have used this passage to prove there is no 7th day Sabbath for the church.
When viewed correctly, this passage upholds the proposition that there IS a Sabbath for the church. So everyone has been wrong about this passage, as well as their conclusion.
But the SDA’s don’t want to admit to any error or mistake. Because if they admit Dr. B is correct on this point, then they would also have to admit that Dr. Ford, an expert on Daniel and Revelation, is also correct.
So where would all this honesty lead?
To Gospel Reform; which the SDA leaders don’t want, because it would eliminate their OC system of tithe, patronage, and control that is destroying the Advent Movement. They think and act just like the Jews.
John 11:46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.
John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
The modern SDA leaders are as corrupt and incompetent as were the 1st century Pharisees. This is why they preside over an OC system that wars against the Gospel, even as they dishonestly claim to follow the NC. This is why the leaders refuse to admit the obvious and repent about how they view the scriptures. This is their real problem. Just like the 1st century Jews.
Christ is calling all individuals in the last church, -from every denomination, to repent. It is that simple. This is the only path forward for the church.
But who is paying attention to Christ? Not the double-talking SDA’s. They see no need to repent about anything. Not even about their obvious error about the meaning of the Sabbath in Colossians.
Bob2 said: It is only hard if you don't read Heb 8:13 and see the discontinuity between the two covenants. Hebrews 10:9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
Tom said: Those who promote full “discontinuity” are enemies of the Gospel and the church. They are following the path of Marcion, the Gnostic heretic. Thus NCT is a great error that has been correctly dismissed by the church long ago. The OC and NC share many things, including God.
The SDA’s have become expert at pretending to understand the Bible. In reality, they are trying to cover up generations of error and false doctrine when they should be admitting and correcting their errors. Such games are not conducive to finding Gospel truth. For them it must be very hard to read the scriptures when they are so blind.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
The SDA’s are just like the blind Pharisees, whose Sabbath they have foolishly embraced.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
No one should follow what the blind SDA’s teach, or what any other denomination teaches. They are all full of error.
The SDA’s, especially, must stop their double-talk and repent for their many false doctrines, starting with the Sabbath, and then the IJ, and Tithe, and on and on the list goes…This is what Christ teaches in the true Pre Advent Judgment of the Laodicean Church.
Is anyone listening to the Gospel teaching of Christ? Some are obviously trying, even the Catholics, but where are the SDA’s?
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
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Tom, I am unclear of what you refer, but if to Sal, the response given here, I have a hard time disagreeing with his reponse to Scott:
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Tom, the oral law is the enemy in your discussion. Christ was fighting that enemy that had polluted the way God wanted His day kept. That oral law got more and more corrupt until Jesus arrived. Do you know the main reason Jesus was sent to earth, was to correct the vision of God man had. Jesus did not speak of a new Sabbath as you state, but as the Sabbath became less a desert experience and more a suburban Jewish experience with synagogues that never existed when the 4th commandment was given, so God through Jesus is speak of what was truth and calling those that corrupted the Sabbath "whited sepluchres". His statements about the Sabbath were not NEW, but correcting bad corrupted words from corrupt leaders. Show me one command that is not in the original or a natural interpretation of the Sabbath as society suburbanized.
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Fred Zaspel discusses this "Gospel Sabbath" as you describe it. Note his conclusion of his study:
Conclusion
Hoste ("thus") identifies the statement of v.28 as a conclusion that has been reached by what has preceded. Mark explicitly affirms, then, that the passage is intended to show the authority of Christ and the changes brought about by his arrival. Jesus' appeal to scripture (vv.25-26) served well to justify his disciples' actions, but in the end it was more a prelude to a claim of great personal authority (v.28) by which he stands superior to even the sabbath.
And this is not without consequence: Jesus' lordship over the sabbath is not an authority which he does not exercise. The fuller details of this await the apostolic writings where it is asserted in more specific terms that the sabbath is no longer a binding principle but in this new age finds its fulfillment in Jesus (e.g., Col.2:16-17). But our Lord himself here lays the groundwork for that very teaching, and his invitation for men to come to him and "rest" (Mat.11:28-30) seems reflective of the same. And when the writer to the Hebrews explains that the new covenant believer, resting in the Lord Jesus Christ, enjoys now and eternally what the old sabbath could only anticipate (cf., Heb.4:3-10), it is merely an extension of the truth laid down here; namely, that the coming of Jesus Christ changed the whole significance of the sabbath forever.
Application
Of the more obvious applications of the dialogue recorded in this passage is one learned from the mistake of the Pharisees. Their interpretation of the law was very rigid and became an end in itself. It left no room for compassion or any act of goodness which conflicted with it. It offered no governing principles to guide life, only regulations. And these regulations were not themselves of divine origin but human reasoning elevated to a position of which they were not worthy. When law becomes the focus and when human traditions are given the status of divine mandate, the spirit of Christ is absent.
More significant still is the portrait of Christ painted here. His coming has ushered in a new age in which the promised salvation of God is realized. The gospel of Christ offers a rest which is more than physical and temporal but, in him, spiritual and eternal.
http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/h … bbath1.htm
Tom you seem to be doing the same as the Pharisees, "making the Sabbath an end in itself!!!"
Last edited by bob_2 (10-22-11 1:39 pm)
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Tom, saw this text and thought of you and the tone of your "message":
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
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Fred Zaspel is also the co-author (with Tom Wells) of New Covenant Theology. And he is the author of He is the author of many other booklets and articles.
http://toeverytribe.com/pages/page.asp?page_id=97776
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Post deleted by Admin. l_miller: I'm fine with you posting to Zaspel's website, like you did in your previous post, but I have deleted your post that solicits donations for him. This forum doesn't exist to solicit donations for other organizations or ministries.
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I would agree with Ryan's action. I think I was the first to mention Fred Zaspel as I studied New Covenant Theology. He is one of the major proponents and he and Tom Wells have written the book, "New Covenant Theology". This is not Reformed Theology or Reformed Sabbath as Tom Norris presents. If you study Zaspel, he clears a lot of confusion of the study of the Old and New Covenants. There discontinuity and the fulfillment of the shadows of the Old Covenant in the New Covenant. New Covenant Theology is not a denominatation, if it can receive a label it is a way of reading and understanding the Bible, a template if you will. The template can be applied to many denominations and helps clarify what has past, and is discontinued and what Christianity is all about. If you dig into New Covenant Theology, you will major in majors not in minors.
We as Adventists need to continue to explore our worldview as we read what Christ brought to this earth and what He fulfilled. He did not suggest or ask the Sabbath to continue as the Jews and Pharisees suggest or EGW or Tom Norris, but He commands the sinner to come to Himself for True Rest. To demand the Sabbath keeping instead of the Sabbath being fufilled in Christ, is to miss the essence of the Covenants, OLD and NEW.
As I read Tom Norris, I see little about Jesus Christ as the center of the Gospel, but the Sabbath as a salvific part of what the modern day Christian must keep, even if it is in a Reformed way!!!
Readers, my mention of Zaspel was never to seek donations to him, but to introduce New Covenant Theology and he does it as good as any that have brought this understanding of the Covenants forward. The study does not do away with lawfulness, but the law that we are to live by is Christ's Law, which is clearly stated by Zaspel's writing on thie topic.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-25-11 2:19 am)
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Bob2 said: Tom, I am unclear of what you refer, but if to Sal, the response given here, I have a hard time disagreeing with his response to Scott:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … venant.htm
Tom said: Yes. He is the same person. But guess what? Some people are able to change their views as more evidence becomes clear. He might be one of those rare individuals where theological facts trump religious tradition.
However, I doubt Sal supports NCT. But you are free to ask him, then we can all find out for certain.
http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=4& … catID=2318
Like I said, this man is a hardcore critic of the SDA’s. He has been publically fighting against them and their view of the Sabbath for many years.
This is why it is noteworthy that he has warmed up to the Reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. He has been a witness to the many discussions that have swirled around this new topic over at All Experts.Com, and surprise of surprises, he endorsed it.
While he has always had kind words for Adventist Reform, I never expected that he would endorse the Reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath. He is obviously much more astute than the SDA’s, who at this point, don’t know what to make of this new 7th day Sabbath doctrine that has caught them by total surprise.
See:
Tom Norris and the Sabbath
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
Sal has been writing for All Experts, in the SDA section, for a very long time. He shocked a lot of people when he said:
“Brother Tom’s explanation of the New Covenant or Gospel Sabbath is very interesting.”
‘I would have no problem keeping this Sabbath of activity and good works. I find this Sabbath one I could keep in good conscience.”
“The SDA’s on this site promote the Old Covenant Sabbath of inactivity. That Sabbath was only given to the Israelites never to the Church.”
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Good for brother Sal! Here is a RC that is not afraid to read the Gospels and follow what Jesus teaches!
If a modern RC can understand the Gospel Sabbath today, why not the 21st century SDA’s? They should have understood this doctrine long before now…
Bob2 said: Tom, the oral law is the enemy in your discussion. Christ was fighting that enemy that had polluted the way God wanted His day kept.
Tom said: Bob, you are not paying attention. The law against work on the Sabbath was not an oral tradition, and neither did oral authority create the Levites. Rather, God, and then Moses wrote the 4th commandment, even as the all male Priesthood was part of the Torah. So your assumptions are wrong.
Bob2 said: His statements about the Sabbath were not NEW, but correcting bad corrupted words from corrupt leaders. Show me one command that is not in the original or a natural interpretation of the Sabbath as society suburbanized.
Tom said: The facts refute your point once again.
Jesus teaching about the reformed, 7th-day Sabbath was both new and amazing. The Jews had never heard or seen such things from any man.
No one had ever said what Jesus did about the Law, the Sabbath, or the Priesthood. His Gospel idea to abolish the Levites and make everyone a Priest, even the women, was mind boggling and offensive to many, especially all the male leaders and Priests. And so too, Christ’s radical doctrine of an active Sabbath where all were given an exemption from the 4th commandment against work on the Sabbath.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Mark 2:12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”
John 7:44 Some of them wanted to seize Him, but no one laid hands on Him.
John 7:45 The officers then came to the chief priests and Pharisees, and they said to them, “Why did you not bring Him?”
John 7:46 The officers answered, “Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks.”
The NEW Covenant was called “new” for a reason. Because the Gospel was very different from what had been taught by the Jews. This is why Jesus made such an impact, and became so popular overnight. He was unlike any man that had ever lived, even as his Gospel words stirred up hope, anger, and much debate.
Today, the true doctrine of the Sabbath condemns every denomination, proving that they have all been following a false Christ of their own making. The genuine Sabbath will be just as shocking and amazing to our religious culture and tradition as it was to the 1st century Jews. This is because the church is so much like the Jews, meaning that they are also blind to the will of God. When confronted with such truth, conflict and debate naturally increases from those choosing to defend tradition.
Every church in Laodicea is called to repent for their many false views, including the universal and public error about the Sabbath. The SDA’s should go first and set an example, followed by the NCT crowd that has been following Marcion all these years and claiming there is no Sabbath.
Bob2 quoted Fred Zaspel, who “discusses this "Gospel Sabbath" as you describe it. Note his conclusion of his study:
Tom said: Good for the NCT crowd to understand that Jesus does exercise his authority over the Sabbath. I agree 100%.
However, NCT fails to follow through on this point by pretending that Jesus does not articulate a NC Sabbath for the church. They think he left this task to Paul, who took a few verses and summed it all up in Colossians.
This is all wrong.
Christ used his authority to change the doctrine of the Sabbath in all four Gospels, even as he connected the Priesthood of All Believers with the Reformed, Active, NC Sabbath.
NCT fails to understand the theological underpinning of the Gospel Sabbath as articulated by Christ. They do not correctly understand the teaching of Jesus.
Zaspel writes: “Mark explicitly affirms, then, that the passage is intended to show the authority of Christ and the changes brought about by his arrival. Jesus' appeal to scripture (vv.25-26) served well to justify his disciples' actions, but in the end it was more a prelude to a claim of great personal authority
(v.28) by which he stands superior to even the sabbath.”
“And this is not without consequence: Jesus' lordship over the sabbath is not an authority which he does not exercise. The fuller details of this await the apostolic writings where it is asserted in more specific terms that the sabbath is no longer a binding principle but in this new age finds its fulfillment in Jesus (e.g., Col.2:16-17).”
“But our Lord himself here lays the groundwork for that very teaching, and his invitation for men to come to him and "rest" (Mat.11:28-30) seems reflective of the same. And when the writer to the Hebrews explains that the new covenant believer, resting in the Lord Jesus Christ, enjoys now and eternally what the old sabbath could only anticipate (cf., Heb.4:3-10), it is merely an extension of the truth laid down here; namely, that the coming of Jesus Christ changed the whole significance of the sabbath forever.”
Tom said: While it is true that Jesus “changed the whole significance of the Sabbath forever,” the NCT crowd has failed to discover this changed doctrine. THIS is the problem.
NCT has a very large blind spot, which cannot see the Reformed Sabbath teaching of Christ in the Gospels. They always pretend there is no such teaching from Christ so they can run to Paul, and specifically Colossians 2: 16-17, (and Hebrews 4) to bash the Sabbath.
Thus NCT marginalizes and ignores Christ Sabbath teaching so that they can obsess over the “fuller details” they claim are found in the apostolic letters.
In fact, NCT claims that the Gospels are not the place to understand the Sabbath of Christ, but rather, we should all look to Paul for more “specific terms that the Sabbath is no longer a binding principle.”
Do you see what is taking place? Zaspel is either being very dishonest or very incompetent. But either way, it is clear that NCT is based on utter nonsense and double-talk. NCT is following the hermeneutic and bias of Marcion. He also ignored the Gospels because it did not fit what he wanted to believe.
NCT may as well remove the Gospels, as did Marcion, because they are paying very little attention to what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath.
The Church Fathers, like Tertullian, accused Marcion “of taking the razor to the Bible and cutting out several of the Pauline epistles; Acts, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus.
“In addition the only Gospel in Marcion's Bible is two thirds of Luke.”
Marcion embraced Paul’s writings, instead of the teachings of Christ in the Gospels.
Tertullian claimed Marcion was the first to separate the New Testament from the Old Testament.[12]
Marcion is said to have gathered scriptures from Jewish tradition, and juxtaposed these against the sayings and teachings of Jesus in a work entitled the Antithesis.[13]
Besides the Antithesis, the Testament of the Marcionites was also composed of a Gospel of Christ which was Marcion's version of Luke, and that the Marcionites attributed to Paul, that was different in a number of ways from the version that is now regarded as canonical.[14] It seems to have lacked all prophecies of Christ's coming, as well as the Infancy account, the baptism, and the verses were more terse in general.
It also included ten of the Pauline Epistles (but not the Pastoral Epistles or the Epistle to the Hebrews, and, according to the Muratonian canon, included a Marcionite Paul's epistle to the Alexandrians and an epistle to the Laodiceans)[15]
In bringing together these texts, Marcion redacted what is perhaps the first New Testament canon on record, which he called the Gospel and the Apostolikon, which reflects his belief the writings reflect the apostle Paul and Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism
Marcion, who was a Gentile bishop, was a great anti-Semite. He hated the OC and wanted the Gospel to be fully separated from Judaism. This too is how the NCT crowd thinks. They hate the Sabbath because it reminds them too much of Judaism.
Marcion the Anti-Semite
“We must distinguish between the doctrine of Marcion himself and that of his followers. Marcion was no Gnostic dreamer. He wanted a Christianity untrammeled and undefiled by association with Judaism.”
Christianity was the New Covenant pure and simple. Abstract questions on the origin of evil or on the essence of the Godhead interested him little, but the Old Testament was a scandal to the faithful and a stumbling-block to the refined and intellectual gentiles by its crudity and cruelty, and the Old Testament had to be set aside.”
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm
As a result of his hatred towards the Jews, Marcion removed, ignored, and marginalized all four Gospels, leaving only Luke, minus the first few chapters, because he did not beleive that Christ could be born of a woman; so he cut it out of his truncated Bible.
This is hardly being honest with the text or respectful of the apostolic record, which is why Marcion was correctly judged a heretic by the church.
The NCT crowd follows the hermeneutic of Marcion. They too ignore, marginalize, and repudiate whatever they don’t like. Thus they are blind to the many places in all four Gospels where Christ teaches, debates, and defends his 7th day, active Gospel Sabbath. Then they run to Paul to find what they like, taking it out of context as well.
See also:
http://www.ntcanon.org/Marcion.shtml#Gospel_of_Luke
The Gospel Sabbath
Jesus clearly and repeatedly articulates, promotes, and defends, his reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath for the church- in all four Gospels. To deny this fact is to deny the Gospel.
Let all face the facts: NCT is based on poor hermeneutics and silly myths of their own making; their own words condemn them.
NCT is worthless and dishonest double-talk from those who have no idea how to read or study the Bible. They have misunderstood the Gospel Sabbath as well as the teachings of Christ about many things. I suggest that all run from this Gnostic garbage.
Bob2 said: I would agree with Ryan's action.
Tom said: Why would this site want to support what is clearly false doctrine? This site is focused on Gospel truth and Adventist reform, not on the nonsense of NCT.
Bob2 said: I think I was the first to mention Fred Zaspel as I studied New Covenant Theology. He is one of the major proponents and he and Tom Wells have written the book, "New Covenant Theology".
Tom said: Your attempt to promote and defend NCT has failed. While many SDA’s, like Richard Fredericks and Dale Raztleff have embraced NCT, thinking it was better than the OC “Schoolmaster” Sabbath of the SDA’s, they have made an obvious error. NCT has been debunked for all to see. False doctrine is still false doctrine.
So I am glad you have your own NCT section, but at some point, you are going to have to admit the obvious; NCT has been destroyed by Tom Norris. It is as dead as the IJ. Sorry.
See:
New Covenant Theology - Bob Sands
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=12
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Bob2 said: NCT is not Reformed Theology or Reformed Sabbath as Tom Norris presents.
Tom said: NCT is very much like modern Gnosticism. It ignores the Gospels in order to promote false doctrine about the Sabbath. NCT is heresy and garbage.
Bob2 said: If you study Zaspel, he clears a lot of confusion of the study of the Old and New Covenants. There discontinuity and the fulfillment of the shadows of the Old Covenant in the New Covenant.
Tom said: Ha! NCT is a paradigm of dishonest confusion and error. Zaspel is an incompetent theologian, and perhaps even a dishonest one. He does not understand the Two Covenants correctly, much less the teachings of Christ about the Gospel or the Sabbath. Nor does he seek for truth. He has a point of view that he wants to promote regardless if it is true or not, just like all the other talking heads in Laodicea.
Bob2 said: New Covenant Theology is not a denomination, if it can receive a label it is a way of reading and understanding the Bible, a template if you will.
Tom said: NCT is so bad, that no denomination has ever embraced its’ anti-Sabbatarian point, nor will they. In fact, the church fathers correctly judged Marcion’s theology very wrong, and this same error prevails with NCT, which features a false hermeneutic and a worthless doctrinal template.
Bob2 said: The template can be applied to many denominations and helps clarify what has past, and is discontinued and what Christianity is all about. If you dig into New Covenant Theology, you will major in majors not in minors.
Tom said: Ha! If you dig deep, you will see Marcion, the heretic. He is the one that ignored and then removed and altered the Gospels because they were too Jewish. He is the first one that wanted a complete separation between the Two Covenants. He is the father of NCT. He is also the reason why we have our NT in its present form, including all four Gospels at the front, in the most prominent position, so as not to be missed or overlooked.
Those that ignore these four Gospels, and pretend they do not have doctrinal authority, and do not contain the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ for the church—are heretics like Marcion. They will be locked out of the Kingdom of God.
NCT is a modern form of Marcionism. Who knew?
Bob2 said: We as Adventists need to continue to explore our worldview as we read what Christ brought to this earth and what He fulfilled.
Tom said: The SDA’s had better get busy repenting and finding the 4th Angels Message. That is what Jesus is telling them. Then they need to repent and start “exploring” the NT for Gospel truth. Because at this point, most of what they teach is wrong—especially about the Sabbath.
Bob2 said: He did not suggest or ask the Sabbath to continue as the Jews and Pharisees suggest or EGW or Tom Norris, but He commands the sinner to come to Himself for True Rest.
Tom said: Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches a reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath for the church. This doctrine also features the Priesthood of all Believers.
This Gospel Sabbath was not a “resting” Sabbath, nor one where tithe is still paid to a separate Priesthood, but rather, it was an active 7th day, where all were priests, and all were free from the OC rules against work on the Gospel Sabbath. Thus, the Reformed Sabbath also condemns the doctrine of tithe, as well as the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Judaizers and SDA’s.
No amount of double-talk from the modern day Gnostics can overturn the clear record of Jesus Sabbath teaching, which is found in all four Gospels. Those that claim to follow Jesus Gospel, must do so, including his teaching about the Sabbath.
Bob2 said: To demand Sabbath keeping instead of the Sabbath being fulfilled in Christ, is to miss the essence of the Covenants, OLD and NEW.
Tom said: You must not be paying attention. It is the OC, “schoolmaster” Sabbath that requires “keeping” and forced rest. This is not the Gospel Sabbath of Christ that we are discussing.
Jesus Gospel Sabbath is “easy” and “lite.” There is no “keeping” of it, except to for believers to meet and thank God for the Gospel Story, and acknowledge his wonderful, creative grace.
Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Matt. 11:30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
While all must come to Jesus for Gospel rest, no believer should embrace the active, NC Sabbath for that reason. Jesus NC Sabbath is very active, it is not a resting Sabbath but a working one. Who knew?
Jesus gives us spiritual rest, 7 days a week, not just on the Sabbath. In fact, the Gospel Sabbath is about doing good works, not resting, and those that follow Christ will understand this fact, as well as repudiate the OC, resting Sabbath.
Bob2 said: As I read Tom Norris, I see little about Jesus Christ as the center of the Gospel, but the Sabbath as a salvific part of what the modern day Christian must keep, even if it is in a Reformed way!!!
Tom said: Ha! You need to stop reading and debating Tom Norris and start reading the Gospels. It is the words of Jesus, recorded in the NT that matter. What he teaches about the Gospel Sabbath is what the church must understand, embrace, and promote.
It is the NCT crowd that closes their eyes to the Gospel teaching of Christ, pretending he teaches no NC Sabbath for the church. Like Marcion, they avoid the Gospels because they condemn what they want to believe and teach. And like Marcion, they also run to Paul in order to establish their false doctrines.
So NCT is not new or original. They are following an ancient path of dishonest hermeneutics and lots of double talk.
No denomination has ever embraced their “no Sabbath” doctrine, and neither did Marcion. Even this heretic did not go that far. So NCT has pressed the envelope on this point, inventing more false doctrine and working against Christ.
Bob2 said: Readers, my mention of Zaspel was never to seek donations to him, but to introduce New Covenant Theology and he does it as good as any that have brought this understanding of the Covenants forward.
Tom said: Zaspel is promoting false and absurd theology. He needs to repent and stop misleading and “exploiting” people.
There have always been too many incompetent and false “teachers” trying to use the Gospel for their own ends. So this is nothing new.
Zaspel is a false prophet and teacher. He publically denies the teaching of Christ about the Sabbath, even as he has made it his life’s work to fight against the Gospel Sabbath and lead many away from the Gospels. This makes him an enemy of Christ and a fool.
Luke 12:48 From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
2Pet. 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Pet. 2:2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2Pet. 2:3 and in their agreed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Bob2 said: The study does not do away with lawfulness, but the law that we are to live by is Christ's Law, which is clearly stated by Zaspel's writing on the topic.
Tom said: The law of Christ includes his active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, which he teaches in all four Gospels.
NCT ignores the Gospels, pretending that Jesus failed to articulate a NC Sabbath for the church. Then they run to Paul’s few cryptic statements, proclaiming they have found the doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.
Those who play such dishonest games with the Word and with the Gospel Story are making a great mistake, and so too any that follow this nonsense and double-talk.
It is time for all that claim to follow Christ, to do so. His Gospel teaching is the basis for all NC doctrine, including the Sabbath.
Matt. 13:9 “He who has ears, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the Reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath
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Tom said:
they also run to Paul in order to establish their false doctrines.
What an outrageous statement!!! Christ was under the Old Covernant, the human part of His being, and His custom was to worship in the synagogue every Sabbath. Who created the synagogue, Tom? Moses?? There was a change from desert living to city living that brought the synagogue into being. When Christ was here He recognized the Sabbath, and pointed out it's corruption by men, specifically the leaders of the Jewish faith. Zaspel has not ignored the Gospels, and Christ's Life. To say so is to ignore His readings.
From my reading of Sal, he is Catholic, but believes in NCT, whether he calls it that or not. Sal is like a lot of American Catholics, they do not jump when the Vatican starts talking of Relics and some of the more mystically or impractical limitation to normal living, such as anti- birth control. Most American Catholics are a practical lot, but most do not know what they believe. Talk to a neighbor who is Catholic, and immediately you will see that they are in over their head about teachings you believe all accept. Most like the liturgy and are seasonal Catholics that love the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic faith. Sal is an exception, because he understands the issues more.
On a personal note, I have not labelled you but have tried to understand your position. You are one of a kind but hardly a tSDA that you accuse Sal of accepting your position on the Sabbath and NCT's position. You have concocted something that Christ condemned. You say you have some proprietary way the Sabbath is to be kept that only you and Des Ford believe, but can not show Christ's commands of it. You reveal your true stripes when you speak ill of what Jesus showed Paul and Paul writes as an inspired mouthpiece for Jesus. You spend more time with the Sabbath then about what Paul finally realizes the Jews accomplish, denying the divinity of Jesus. Islam does the same. Let's pray and hope that the limited time between now and a close of probation or arrival of Christ the Second Time, allows for acceptance by Jews and Islamics alike. However, I do not believe you nor the tSDA eschatology allows for what others churches do, a tribulation that allows for the Jews to convert while all Christians are raptured pre trib. You need to be less accusatory and listen, rather than condemn. Your demeanor will not bring you any listeners from the SDA or other organized churches. For all the repenting you demand, I fear for you more than some other that vary from you and I on a few points.
Zaspel has said as noted above in red:
Of the more obvious applications of the dialogue recorded in this passage is one learned from the mistake of the Pharisees. Their interpretation of the law was very rigid and became an end in itself. It left no room for compassion or any act of goodness which conflicted with it. It offered no governing principles to guide life, only regulations. And these regulations were not themselves of divine origin but human reasoning elevated to a position of which they were not worthy. When law becomes the focus and when human traditions are given the status of divine mandate, the spirit of Christ is absent
Note also the following that shows your false accusation of Zaspel ignoring the Gospels and misuse of Paul's writings:
http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/h … bbath1.htm
Last edited by bob_2 (10-28-11 6:13 pm)
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Tom do you believe this is talking about the Sabbath worship continuing or leaving the day of worship open? It certainly is suggesting a change of WHO will be worshipped, but no DAY is spoken of which He could have done if that aspect was urgent and salvific, right?:
John 4:21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
The message was about Salvation and who Jesus was, not what DAY was proper to worship or approach God/Jesus or the Spirit, He was speaking of the arrival of His Kingdom and forgiveness of sin.
Christ's Law was used by Paul separate from The Law, 10 Commandments, but Christ's Law, "Love God and your neighbor as yourself." Christ's Law is distinct from the Old Covenant Law:
1 Cor 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-29-11 4:20 pm)
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Bob, why are you trying to deny the obvious similarity between NCT and Marcion? While you say the comparison is “outrageous,” it is not. Marcion ignored the Gospels so that he could promote a NT Bible that featured the writings of Paul.
Much like Marcion, NCT claims complete separation from the OC, even as they claim Jesus did not articulate a Sabbath for the church. Then, like Marcion, they run to Paul to defend their false views. This is classic Marcionism. Perhaps you were not aware of this history?
Bob2 said: Christ was under the Old Covenant, the human part of His being, and His custom was to worship in the synagogue every Sabbath. Who created the synagogue, Tom? Moses??
Tom said: While Christ was born under the OC, he is a NC figure who introduced the Gospel to the Jews and invented the Church. Consequently, his Sabbath worship was very different from the OC practice, which is why the leaders killed him.
Jesus introduced a NC Sabbath for the Church. This fact, which is recorded in all four Gospels, cannot be refuted. So why deny the obvious?
Bob2 said: There was a change from desert living to city living that brought the synagogue into being.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Since when does geography or cultural development change the Gospel Story?
The Jews escaping slavery from Egypt and then wandering in the desert is part of the Gospel Story. And so too was their development in Canaan, including the growth of population and cities.
Moreover, Jesus was not a land planner, nor an expert on zoning laws, climate change, or cultural development. His Gospel theology is not affected by geography as you claim.
Bob2 said: When Christ was here He recognized the Sabbath, and pointed out it's corruption by men, specifically the leaders of the Jewish faith.
Tom said: Christ did much more than “recognize” the Sabbath. He turned it on it head and dramatically changed it in the name of God, even as he taught the abolishment of the Levitical Priesthood and the end of the law based Judaism.
Jesus abolished the OC, “schoolmaster” Sabbath and replaced it with the active, reformed, Gospel Sabbath that is featured in all four Gospels.
What has been written in the Gospels cannot be refuted. Why not sit at the feet of Jesus, in the Gospels, and learn about his Gospel Sabbath?
Bob2 said: Zaspel has not ignored the Gospels, and Christ's Life. To say so is to ignore His readings.
Tom said: While Zaspel does give some lip service to the Gospels, so too did Marcion. That’s why he kept one of the four Gospels in his heavily censored version of the NT, after he altered it to his liking.
So to be technical, neither Marcion nor Zaspel totally ignored the Gospels, but in fact, this is what they have both done. This is why Zaspel sends people to some obscure passage from Paul to understand the Sabbath and not to Christ in the Gospels.
Those that send people AWAY from the written teaching of Christ in the Gospels, are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Period.
All that want to understand the Gospel Sabbath must go to Christ, in the Gospels, and learn from him. It’s a simple concept that all must follow if they want Eternal Life.
Jesus is the author of the Gospel and the NC Sabbath. Those that follow his teaching will understand this fact and embrace his correct teaching in all things.
Those that follow a false Christ or think Paul is superior to Christ, are only fooling themselves. The church must follow the teachings of Christ, not run to others for excuses to not believe certain NC doctrines.
Bob2 said: From my reading of Sal, he is Catholic, but believes in NCT, whether he calls it that or not.
Tom said: Why not ask him this question and let him speak for himself? I doubt he supports NCT. And if he does, it will not take him long to figure out it is a scam.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
NCT; The Sabbath fulfilled in Christ
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … christ.htm
Go ahead, ask him.
Bob2 said: Sal is like a lot of American Catholics, they do not jump when the Vatican starts talking of Relics and some of the more mystically or impractical limitation to normal living, such as anti- birth control. Most American Catholics are a practical lot, but most do not know what they believe.
Tom said: Sal is not like most RC’s. He studies the Bible in a serious manner. He also has a public ministry to warn people about the many errors of Seventh-day Adventism. So it is unfair and incorrect to say that he does not know what he believes.
Bob2 said: Talk to a neighbor who is Catholic, and immediately you will see that they are in over their head about teachings you believe all accept. Most like the liturgy and are seasonal Catholics that love the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic faith. Sal is an exception, because he understands the issues more.
Tom said: Ha! All Laodiceans are in over the head when it comes to doctrine, including the SDA’s and the Gnostic leaning NCT crowd. No matter what denomination, all full of confusion and false doctrine, and the universal error about the doctrine of the Sabbath clearly underscores this point.
Bob2 said: On a personal note, I have not labeled you but have tried to understand your position.
Tom said: You have not tried very hard to understand the Gospel Sabbath. In fact, you have tried your hardest to ignore the Gospel facts that condemn your view, even as you constantly defend and promote NCT, -even though it has been debunked for all to see.
Bob2 said: You are one of a kind, but hardly a tSDA that you accuse Sal of accepting your position on the Sabbath and NCT's position.
Tom said: The Reformed Sabbath of Jesus is “one of a kind,” while all other versions, either Sunday based, or the 7th day version, are wrong, including NCT.
Bob2 said: You have concocted something that Christ condemned.
Tom said: The Reformed, 7th day Sabbath is self-evident from the Gospels. All one has to do is read the many words of Christ about this topic. So there is no excuse for anyone today not to know what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath.
Bob2 said: You say you have some proprietary way the Sabbath is to be kept that only you and Des Ford believe, but can not show Christ's commands of it.
Tom said: Just as there is only one Gospel, so too one Gospel Sabbath. Jesus is the author of the NC Sabbath, not Dr. Ford or Tom Norris. The fact that you did not know there was such a doctrine speaks volumes. Ignorance hardly makes anyone an expert.
The Reformed Sabbath is clearly explained by Jesus in the Gospels for all to see. Those who close their eyes to his teaching, will not be able to see any doctrine correctly.
Bob2 said: You reveal your true stripes when you speak ill of what Jesus showed Paul and Paul writes as an inspired mouthpiece for Jesus.
Tom said: Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath or anything else. Jesus in the Lord of the Sabbath and the head theologian of the Church. Anyone that wants to understand the Gospel Sabbath must go directly to Christ, the author, and learn from him.
Christ is the one that defines and defends the Reformed Sabbath, even as Paul also supports the same doctrine.
This idea that Paul repudiates the Sabbath teaching of Jesus is absurd and impossible. This is just more Gnostic hermeneutics from the NCT crowd.
Bob2 said: You spend more time with the Sabbath then about what Paul finally realizes the Jews accomplish, denying the divinity of Jesus. Islam does the same.
Tom said: Misunderstand the Gospel and the Sabbath will also be wrong. Because only the Gospel is salvific, having a false Sabbath is a warning that should not be taken lightly.
Those who fail to understand Jesus teaching about his reformed Sabbath are also failing to understand the rest of his teachings as well. Why? Because they fail to go to the Gospels and read the words of Jesus, so that they may be saved.
Bob2 said: Let's pray and hope that the limited time between now and a close of probation or arrival of Christ the Second Time, allows for acceptance by Jews and Islamics alike.
Tom said: All are free to join the Gospel and embrace the words of Eternal Life.
Bob2 said: However, I do not believe you nor the tSDA eschatology allows for what others churches do, a tribulation that allows for the Jews to convert while all Christians are raptured pre trib.
Tom said: The NT does not teach the secret rapture nor the SDA error about Sunday laws starting the time of trouble.
Just as the Laodicean church is full of error about the Sabbath, so too about eschatology. When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the Sabbath and eschatology.
Bob2 said: You need to be less accusatory and listen, rather than condemn. Your demeanor will not bring you any listeners from the SDA or other organized churches. For all the repenting you demand, I fear for you more than some other that vary from you and I on a few points.
Tom said: The doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath is a major point, and so too is respect for the teaching authority of Christ. All those who refuse the opportunity to repent of their false views will lose out on Eternal Life.
Bob2 said; Zaspel has said as noted above in red:
Tom said: Zaspel’s obsession with his false Sabbath doctrine is impressive, but not his ability to deal honestly with the issues. While many are obviously confused about the Sabbath, Zaspel’s position is just as impossible, confused, and wrong as anything out there.
There is only one NC Sabbath doctrine for the church. So far-- the religious scholars of all denominations, including the SDA’s, are too blind to see it. This will change as soon as the Gospels are honestly brought into the discussion.
Here is a new book about the Sabbath. Zaspel’s view is represented, and so too the SDA’s, but not the genuine Sabbath of Christ that we are discussing.
See; Perspectives on the Sabbath
by Christopher John Donato, ed., Perspectives on the Sabbath: Four Views (B&H, 2011), 400 pages.
A book Review by Fred G. Zaspel
June 23, 2011
Not all “perspectives” or “views” books are equally rewarding. Their value hinges on the success of each contributor in representing his position well and arguing his case clearly and persuasively. A failure on this score, even in degree, quickly minimizes the value of the book. Because many of us who pick up a book of this type have already hammered out our position to one degree or another, we hope for good challenges to our thinking from all sides.
In all these ways Perspectives on the Sabbath must be judged a success. Each of the contributors helpfully presents his case and, therefore, contributes to the Christian cause of learning.
The four contributors are, in order,
Skip MacCarty, pastor, Pioneer Memorial Church, Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan, representing the Seventh-day Adventist position;
Joseph A. Pipa, president and professor of historical and systematic theology, Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, representing the “Christian Sabbath” position;
Charles P. Arand, chairman, department of systematic theology, Concordia Seminary, representing the confessional Lutheran position;
Craig L. Blomberg, distinguished professor of New Testament, Denver Seminary, representing the fulfillment view.
Following the established “views” and “perspectives” approach, each author’s case is presented in turn, followed by responses from the others. One helpful innovation in this book is the space given to the author, then, to give a final word of response, rounding out the discussion well.
Of course arguing a case well and having a good case to argue are two very different things. And besides that, we all inevitably approach such books with a bias already in place, leaving it difficult to appreciate the full weight of every argument presented by each contributor. Confessing up front my sympathy with Blomberg on this issue, and not wanting to contribute to the degree of emotion and even rancor that has too-often accompanied this particular subject, I will offer some observations that I trust are objective. I will try to limit my comments primarily to exegetical matters
http://tgcreviews.com/reviews/perspecti … e-sabbath/
http://www.egw.org/zboard/?mid=vannote& … _type=desc
See also: The Seventh-day Sabbath by Skip MacCarty
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/ … y-sabbath/
While I don’t have this new book, I can understand why the NCT crowd thinks their view is best. The competition is not very good. However, when the Reformed, 7th day, active Sabbath is placed on the table, then all of a sudden things change.
NCT is correct to conclude that every church teaches a false view of the Sabbath. I agree with this premise. Too bad they reached a wrong solution, thus making their claims of Sabbatarian supremacy moot, contributing to the confusion. And too bad the SDA’s are so foolish as to be promoting the wrong Sabbath doctrine. They were supposed to be the Sabbath experts, just like the Jews, but they too have failed...
While the SDA’s have worked hard for their standing in this discussion, and they have undeniably moved the Sabbath debate forward, especially as it relates to the 7th day, they are still as wrong as were the 1st century Pharisees that hated the Gospel. Their view of the 7th day Sabbath is not what Christ teaches in the Gospels. They have adopted the view of his Jewish enemies.
Bob, understand that this discussion is not about NCT, but about the SDA’s correcting and updating their view of the Sabbath. They were promoting Sabbath Reform long before the NCT crowd existed,and thus they should know better. While the SDA’s are correct that only the 7th day can be the Sabbath, they are dead wrong to claim, “The New Testament never changes the Sabbath commandment.” Here is where many are making an obvious and telling error.
The 7th day Sabbath Changed by Christ
Jesus does in fact change the way a Gospel believer views the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. While it is true that the day was never changed to Sunday, as the SDA’s scream, the OC requirement against work has been eliminated by Christ, even as all are made Priests of God to explain this theological change. The Gospels are clear on this point.
While the SDA’s constantly talk about the Sabbath rest, as if they lived in the OC, they fail to realize that Christ nowhere teaches about resting from work on the Sabbath. Nor is there any passage that shows the living Christ resting on the Sabbath. On the contrary, there are many passages that show him very active, even working on the Sabbath and breaking the rules.
In fact, the only time Christ “rests” on the 7th day is when he was dead and in the tomb! Does this mean that death is best way to observe the Sabbath? Or that Jesus is teaching us about the Sabbath from the grave? Hardly. The SDA's are taking positions that do not have the support of Christ and so too are all others.
The SDA’s need to restudy and update their view of the Sabbath, even as they must repent for Glacier View and for what they did to Dr. Ford.
It is time for the modern SDA’s to move forward and update their doctrine of the Sabbath as well as many other things. Then they will win this Sabbath debate every time. But not now. So long as they embrace their OC view of the “schoolmaster” Sabbath, and other errors, like tithe, and the IJ, they will lose every time.
In conclusion, it is time for the Advent Movement to wake up and understand that there is a new way to view the Sabbath. This new view, which is anchored in all four Gospels, must become “Present Truth” for the Advent Movement, leading them forward to the 4th Angels Message, and to an improved understanding and articulation of the Gospel and last day events.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, look at this cite. What I believe is hardly close to this. Do you secretly believe this? You seem to have studied him. I have never said the Gospels should be trashed, only stated what Christ realized that without His Death and Resurrection, His kingdom never begins and He has failed to save mankind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism
Tom said without sources:
Jesus introduced a NC Sabbath for the Church. This fact, which is recorded in all four Gospels, cannot be refuted. So why deny the obvious?
The trouble is Tom, you have been asked for the sources before, Christ does not give any command to do what you suggest but says for the follower to come to him for rest, His yoke is easy, and His burden is light:
Matthew 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
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Bob, there is no longer any point in trying to deny the 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath of Christ. You have lost this debate. However, no one can say that you have not tried, over and over, and over...
But there comes a time when enough is enough. You need to admit that your view cannot be supported by the teachings of Jesus in the NT, and so too all the other Sabbath views of the modern Laodiceans. Every church in the land has a false and wrong view of the Sabbath, and NCT only adds to the error and confusion.
The Reformed Sabbath of Christ is such an obvious, well-supported doctrine in the Gospels, that it is stunning the SDA’s or others have not previously articulated it over the years.
Regardless, in the 21st century, this new Gospel truth has emerged for all to see, surprising and condemning both the SDA’s and their critics, including those that have embraced NCT. At what point does truth matter?
Bob2 said: The trouble is Tom, you have been asked for the sources before, Christ does not give any command to do what you suggest but says for the follower to come to him for rest, His yoke is easy, and His burden is light.”
Tom said: The source for the Reformed Gospel Sabbath is Christ in the Gospels. His teaching about the NC Sabbath is clearly featured by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Those who deny this theological and historical record are not following Jesus, nor will they understand the Gospel correctly and enter into the Kingdom of God. So let all be careful how they treat the Word of God and Christ.
Bob, just to show you how easy it is for people to understand this new Sabbath doctrine, it seems that even the RC’s can understand it.
Look at Sal, an SDA critic and professed RC, he seems to be teaching this new doctrine at All Experts. Listen to him answer a recent question about the Sabbath that shows he is adopting this new reformed view.
Question for Sal:
Hello Sal,
It's been awhile since last contact ~ trust you are well.
My question is regarding the sabbath.
Seeing that Christ came not to destroy the prophets and the law, but to fulfill them (Matt.5:17-18), my understanding is that Christ fulfilled everything in the Laws' demands. He kept all the Law requirements absolutely perfect which included the 4th Commandment ~ the Sabbath!
If the question is asked, "Did Christ ever break the Sabbath command, ~ the answer is "YES!" I quote John 5:17-18(KJV) "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.(vs17) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.(vs18)
How do we reconcile that Christ kept the Sabbath perfectly, yet He broke the Sabbath?
It has been reasoned that seeing that He is "Lord of the Sabbath"(Mark 2: 27,28) He can do what He likes with it, but it doesn't explain how He kept it and yet broke it.
Could you please throw some light on this matter, please.
Thanking you in His name,
Ron
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ommand.htm
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Answer:
Dear Brother Ron:
Nice to hear from you again.
You ask a very interesting question. I believe that your question can be boiled down to: How could Jesus be sinless and yet have broken the 7th day Sabbath? All agree that Jesus lived a sinless life.
“For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15 NKJV).
“He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth” (1 Peter 2:22 NIV; cf. Isaiah 53:9).
An honest investigation of the Scriptures reveals that Jesus did break the Sabbath. This fact is plainly stated, “For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God” (John 5:18 NASB). Earlier in this chapter Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath. Then in what could only have been a deliberate attempt to provoke the Pharisees Jesus ordered the newly healed man to pick up his bed and carry it. Jesus did this fully aware that the man would be in clear violation of the Sabbath command to rest.
“For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death” (Exodus 31:15 NASB).
“For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death” (Exodus 35:2 NASB).
Carrying a heavy load on the Sabbath is expressly forbidding. “Thus says the LORD, ‘Take heed for yourselves, and do not carry any load on the sabbath day or bring anything in through the gates of Jerusalem. You shall not bring a load out of your houses on the sabbath day nor do any work, but keep the sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers’”(Jeremiah 7:21-22).
So why did Jesus do these thing and how could he remain sinless? Jesus was introducing the New Covenant Sabbath. The Old Covenant Sabbath was marked by inactivity: rest, no work. The New Covenant Sabbath is marked by activity: good works, preaching the Gospel.
“Then He said to them, ‘What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath’” (Matthew 12:11-12 NKJV).
“And Jesus said to them, ‘I ask you, is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to destroy it?’” (Luke 6:9 NASB).
Jesus kept the Old Covenant Sabbath until he began his ministry. Then he began to teach the New Covenant Sabbath on which it is not sinful to do work or carry heavy loads. He was no longer obligated to observe the Old Covenant Sabbath; therefore, Jesus remained sinless even while violating Old Covenant Sabbath restrictions.
Thanks for the question.
God Bless You,
Brother Sal
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ommand.htm
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Good for Sal! He got it right!
Let the Angels sing for joy…
There is an OC Sabbath and a NC Sabbath. One was abolished and the other, which has been lost for many, many years, is now emerging for all to see.
Mark 4:22 “For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light.
The Reformed Sabbath of Christ is the genuine NC Sabbath of the apostolic church. It is also the culmination of Sabbath Reform for the SDA’s. Here is the final and correct understanding of the 7th day Sabbath for the church.
This Reformed Sabbath is a public doctrine for all that honestly want to follow Christ and his Gospel teaching. It is a doctrine that shows if one is following Christ, - or the many false traditions and myths that have infiltrated the church over the years.
The Reformed Sabbath of Christ is for those who are paying attention to the Word and to the authority of Christ. It is not for those who repudiate Christ and refuse to repent for their many false doctrines, or for those who cherish tradition and double-talk over Gospel Truth.
Wake up SDA’s, -- it is time to repent of the OC Sabbath and embrace the one and only 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. The same goes for their critics and all Sunday keepers. They too must repent of their false views and embrace Gospel truth.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
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Tom, I get it, you believe in a Reformed Sabbath you can work on. Also one you must keep the way you and Des Ford think it should be kept to be saved. WOW!!! The Gospel plus..... That is not what the Gospel or Paul taught.
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14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Rom 2:14,15
So they, the Gentiles, lived by their consciences. And it says that the law was written in their hearts. What law? "For the law is fulfilled in one word, even this, thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself" Gal 5:14 The law written in their hearts is love to God which is proven by the love we have for our neighbor. They have compassion for their fellow man. That's the story of the good Samaritan. Were these Gentiles "who have not the law" required to keep the Sabbath? No, they didn't have the law.
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LED OF THE SPIRIT
But If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the Law. Gal 5:1
“Peter…if thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews”. Gal 2:14.
Bob2, there was a time when we didn’t “get it”, but now that we do, just as was with us, there yet seems to be a vail over the hearts of many that keeps them from understanding this most essential truth of the freedom from the law given us by God.
“But their minds were blinded, for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away ln the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Never the less, when it (their heart) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away”. 2Cor 3:14-16.
“Now the Lord is that Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is (“Christ in you”, the Holy Spirit,“the hope of glory” as we are told in Col 1:27) there is liberty”2Cor 3:17.
And we are changed by what, keeping a day, or checking off the list of the Ten Commandments daily? No, they were given to convict us of our sinfulness so that we may turn to the One whom all power was given, Jesus, that He may bestow it on us. “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass (seeing clearly the heart of Jesus as we read the New Covenant writings) the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, (advancing, step by step, to becoming more Christlike) even as by the Spirit of the Lord”2Cor 3:18.
Once we receive our sealing, (Eph1:13,14 & 4:30) the Holy Spirit, we are His, the righteous because God dwells in us and brings us into oneness with His Heart.. “Hereby know we that we dwell in Him and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit” 1John 4:13. This takes place of “the letter of the law”. “And such trust have we through Christ to Godward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; who also hath made us able ministers of the NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT, FOR THE LETTER KILLETH, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE!!!!! 2Cor 3:4,5,6
“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER” Rom 7:6.
“Knowing this, THE LAW IS NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine” 1Tim 1:9-10.
We, who are in Christ having received the Holy Spirit, are no longer under the law, but it remains , “heaven and earth shall not pass” for those yet to be convicted of their sinfulness that they may turn to Christ and receive the anointing of the Holy Spirit to enter into what is stated aforehand.
“But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed” Gal 3:23. Because, until after the resurrection, the Holy Spirit was not made available to all who would receive the Gospel.
Then, as Jesus says in John 16: 7-15:
“ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
Jesus in anticipation of His victory said “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out” Jn 12:31.
The Holy Spirit rules over us by our willing submission, convicts us of sin and empowers us to overcome and also further the Gospel commission.
The New Covenant is of the Holy Spirit in us, which is God in us to live out His will. As we read the New Testament, which was given by God, we receive His direction to do the works of Him which is correction for us over inherited and learned tendencies, and also works of compassion towards our fellow man. “Christ in you”; the anointing of the Holy Spirit, is what gives us the attributes of Jesus, which is essentially what makes us “a man after God’s own heart”.
Therefore: “There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death” (The Ten Commandments) Romans 8:1,2
The law demands perfection under the pain of death, we can’t fulfill it. Even all the works that we do under the tutelage of the new Covenant writings will always fall short of the perfect requirement of the law. That’s why our righteousness is as filthy rags. We claim His righteousness, His perfection in our place as we grow in His grace and power. This is why Christ in us is our Sabbath rest which Joshua could not give Israel. Only Jesus’ coming, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit can, as it was purposed to do. That’s the rest that Hebrews speaks of. It’s not about a day. A day is not conducive to salvation. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is.
As Paul tells us, in Romans 14, that some keep one day or another, others keep every day alike. He could not say that if the if was a certain day to be kept lest we forfeit our eternal inheritance.
There is no new ‘reformed working Sabbath’; God says so.
Cadge
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Bob2 said: Tom, I get it, you believe in a Reformed Sabbath you can work on.
Tom said: The 7th day Sabbath of Christ is NOT a “resting” Sabbath where work is prohibited. It is not an OC doctrine where people are forced to rest and prohibited from work or play as the Jews and SDA’s teach. So yes, all are free to work on the NC Sabbath without guilt.
The SDA’s have made a huge mistake to think the OC Sabbath is the same as the NC Sabbath. While the day is the same, not so with the doctrine. The Gospel record easily disproves their claim that Jesus did NOT change the Sabbath. He dramatically changed it into a very different doctrine, even though it’s Semitic basis as a memorial to the Creation Story remains.
So the SDA’s need to confess their error and repent, paying close attention to what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath.
While the OC and NC Sabbaths are both on the 7th day, the SDA’s failed to comprehend how dramatically Jesus changed the Sabbath from a law-based doctrine of no work to a Gospel version that features activity and work.
The SDA’s failed to grasp that the change in the Covenants not only abolished Tithe and the Levitical Priesthood, but also the OC doctrine of the Sabbath, including the 4th Commandment law about not working on the Sabbath. This rule about work does NOT apply to anyone in the NC.
Furthermore, the change in the Priesthood became the basis for the REFORMED Sabbath. Thus the genuine 7th day Sabbath of Christ rests on the Priesthood of all Believers, not on the Levitical priesthood, tithe, or a hierarchical based model as the SDA’s have embraced.
So the SDA’s must not only upgrade their position about the Sabbath, they must also eliminate tithe and change their OC organizational structure.
Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
Let all understand that Jesus changed view of the Priesthood was the theological basis for him to grant an exemption from the rule against work contained in the 4th Commandment. This is a critical point to understand.
So Bob, I don’t think you “get it” as yet. Unless you comprehend why Jesus changed the Sabbath, and the basis for this change, you will still be in a fog.
The Sabbath is reformed because the Priesthood is reformed and changed. To misunderstand this point is to misunderstand the NC Sabbath.
Bob2 said: Also one you must keep the way you and Des Ford think it should be kept to be saved. WOW!!! The Gospel plus..... That is not what the Gospel or Paul taught.
Tom said: Only Christ makes the rules for the Gospel Sabbath, no one else. Not Moses and not the Judaisers, and not the RC's or the SDA's. So if you have any argument about NC Sabbath keeping, it is with Jesus, not with Tom Norris or Dr. Ford.
Remember, just before Jesus introduces his Reformed Sabbath in Matthew, he declares his rules to be minimal and light. The association of this remark with the Sabbath is clear. The Gospel Sabbath was not going to be a “burden” nor was it going to be hard.
Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Matt. 11:30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
Matt. 12:3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,
Matt. 12:4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
The NC features the compassion and salvation of the Gospel, not the bloody sacrifices of the law based Levitical Priesthood. Thus a new priesthood would replace the old tithe based order, with Jesus being the new High Priest with the authority to forgive sin and reform the Sabbath through an exemption to the 4th commandment.
Just as the Priests routinely “broke the Sabbath” and were innocent, so too the NC Priests, which are the entire church. All that believe in Christ are free to “break the Sabbath” by working, and be guiltless. Such is the clear teaching of Christ, who has all authority over the law, the church and the Sabbath.
The Easy Sabbath
The Reformed Sabbath can also be called the “Light Sabbath” or the Easy Sabbath. This is very true when compared to the most difficult and confining OC Sabbath. Also called the “schoolmaster” Sabbath. That was a hard Sabbath, as many SDA’s will attest.
Besides, it is not hard to “keep” the Gospel Sabbath. Why? Because there are no rules, except to understand the Gospel teachings of Christ and acknowledge his NC, reformed Sabbath, praising God for his goodness and meeting with like-minded believers.
No one is to judge our Sabbath behavior, nor is anyone to feel guilty for doing any kind of work on the 7th day. And no one is to pretend that it is a day of rest, where work is prohibited. That is also a very wrong view of the Sabbath.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
The Gospel Sabbath is very different from the typical view found by either the Sunday keepers or the SDA’s. Proving that few are paying attention to the Gospel teachings of Christ.
No wonder Jesus describes the last church as totally blind and naked, needing repentance and reform in the worst way. The church today, meaning all denominations, is wrong about most everything, and the doctrine of the Sabbath underscores and highlights this sad prophetic fact.
Moreover, do not underestimate the SDA’s contribution to the Reformed Sabbath that we are discussing. They get credit for correctly insisting that only the 7th day can be the proper day. Good for them. They are correct on this point, even as they are correct to teach that the doctrine of the Sabbath will play a role in the final Gospel proclamation prior to the 2nd Coming in Rev 18. Too bad they had the wrong doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
They should have known. They have no excuse. Especially because they exiled the very scholar who understood the Gospel and the Sabbath more than all others in the SDA church. We all know that Dr. Ford refuted OC, Traditional Adventism, the IJ, and all manner of legalism. So why did he not embrace NCT or Sunday? Why did he still defend the 7th day as the Sabbath?
Answer: Because Dr. Ford understands and follows the Gospel. This is why he refused to abandon the 7th day Sabbath. Thus he was leading by example and defending a correct and fundamental point of theology.
The Gospels contain Jesus view about how to “keep” the Sabbath. Thus the NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is part of the Gospel Story and part of the teaching of Christ, even the law of Christ. It was very different from what the Jews taught, which is why Jesus was constantly fighting with the legalistic leaders about his new Sabbath doctrine, which they hated.
Today, if Jesus walked into any church and preached a sermon on the Sabbath, he would cause great confusion and debate. His words would shock and condemn all organized religion, even as he would challenge all to follow his amazing, Reformed, 7th day Sabbath and stop listening to their incompetent religious leaders.
Of course the SDA’s would be very angry with Jesus, no doubt calling him a fraud, while the Sunday keepers would also denounce him as a false prophet. Who is this man to try and change so many years of church history and tradition?
In other words, there would be a replay of the 1st century Sabbath debates. The religious leaders would protest this new view because it goes against what they have been teaching for centuries. Just like in the 1st century.
Thus the Gentile church has made the same mistakes as the OC Jews. They too have rejected the Gospel and made up their own false doctrines. Money, tradition, and personal control are the real driving forces behind organized religion today. Not the Spirit of Christ.
Consequently, the church has obviously misunderstood the Gospel, embracing a false; law based Sabbath, even as most have also followed the wrong day, Sunday. So most are twice wrong about the Sabbath.
Today, through the Gospels, Jesus speaks to the individuals in the church. Here, through the Word, all are tested to see if they will listen to Christ, and follow his Gospel teaching, including his often-stated position about the NC Sabbath.
Those that ignore his words and marginalize his Gospel teaching will not be granted Eternal Life.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
The Words Of Jesus Include His Sabbath Teaching
The “words” of Jesus include his teaching about the 7th day active Sabbath. Those who refuse to hear them, are being very foolish.
Those that are “wise” unto Eternal Life will “hear” the Words of Christ about the Sabbath, and everything else, and “act on them.”
However, those Christians that are foolish, will follow a false Christ made of sand. They will find themselves embracing tradition, myth, and error, all in the name of Christ. But heaven is not fooled, and neither are those here on earth that understand the Gospel.
All have a choice to be wise or foolish.
All have a choice to be honest with the Word, - and to follow the teachings of Christ or not.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Those that honestly seek Gospel salvation cannot be ashamed of the reformed, active Sabbath of Christ, or anything else that Jesus teaches.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the genuine, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath
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Bob2 said: Tom, look at this cite. What I believe is hardly close to this. Do you secretly believe this? You seem to have studied Marcion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism
Tom said: It is amazing to me that anyone would enter into a public discussion about the Sabbath without knowing the history of the 1st and 2nd centuries.
While our discussion about the Sabbath is focused on Jesus 1st century teaching, it is also important to understand the later Sabbath debates as they moved into the 2nd century, where Marcion enters the story.
NCT is not new. It features some of the very same arguments and errors of the post-apostolic church.
For example, while Marcion wanted the Sabbath abolished, along with the Law and Judaism, the church fathers did not agree with his radical and complete separation from the OT, and thus they claimed that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath. (Sound familiar?)
However, such a defense of the Sabbath required the formulation of a Sabbath doctrine for the church. Consequently, the church fathers claimed that “every day” is a spiritual Sabbath for the believer, even as Sunday was the 8th day of the new creation.
Notwithstanding their defense of the Sabbath, they would also embrace the Sunday Sabbath as the Lord’s Day.
NCT has clearly followed these same confused errors.
Although Marcion hated the Sabbath and wanted it abolished, he supported the 1st day Lord’s Day. After all, he was a bishop, and there has never been a time when the church did not meet on a weekly basis.
If anyone would have said to Marcion, like we are saying on this thread, that Jesus defines the NC Sabbath for the church in the Gospels; Marcion would have replied that these books are false and wrong. Which is why he did not include them in his cannon.
NCT essentially does the same thing by pretending that Jesus does not articulate a doctrine of the Sabbath in the Gospels. Then they run to Paul to find some supposed excuse as to why there is no Sabbath for the church.
Regardless, the post apostolic church never correctly understood the NC Sabbath. In fact, during the 2nd century, both the 7th day Sabbath and the 1st day Lord’s Day were being observed within the church, thus creating both confusion and debate, which finally resolved itself in favor of a Sunday Lord’s day at the Council of Laodicea in 364 AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea
http://reluctant-messenger.com/council-of-laodicea.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm
http://www.churchofgodcarmichael.org/sa … ath44.html
I suggest that you study these issues and try to get your historical bearings. Which will help you understand the Reformed Sabbath under discussion.
Here is a reference that shows how the 2nd century church tried to understand and make corrections to the OC Sabbath. They were not wrong to understand that the "resting" Sabbath has been abolished by Christ. But they were wrong to also try to embrace the 1st day as the Lord's day. They should have embraced the active, 7th day Sabbath as the Lord's day for the church, ignoring Sunday as part of any Sabbath doctrine.
“Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for `he that does not work, let him not eat.' For, say the [holy] oracles, `In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread.' But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, `To the end, for the eighth day,' on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ,” etc. Chapter ix.
http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further … timony.pdf
Marcion:
Marcion acquired his very perverse opinions not from a master, but his master from his opinion! … He displayed a hatred against the Jews' most solemn day, He was only professedly following the Creator, as being His Christ, in this very hatred of the Sabbath... (Tertullian. Against Marcion, Book IV, Chapter 12. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 3. Edited by Philip Schaff, D.D., LL.D. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2005 by K. Knight).
http://www.cogwriter.com/marcion.htm
Marcionism. Marcion was a unique Gnostic. He taught that the god of the Old Testament was an evil god. The God of the New Testament was a good God and Father of Jesus Christ, who was not born, but magically appeared as a spiritual man.
Marcion rejected the Old Testament and references to it in the New Testament writings.56 Thus, to Marcion, the Sabbath, established by the evil creator god, was annulled by the emanation from the Father God, Jesus Christ. Tertullian attacked Marcion’s division of gods and setting aside of divine law, including the Sabbath.
http://royceonarampage.wordpress.com/20 … thought-4/
http://www.gnosis.org/library/marcion.htm
Here is a well-written article about the history of the Sabbath:
Sabbath & Lord’s Day in Early Church Thought 1-5
http://royceonarampage.wordpress.com/20 … thought-2/
Conclusion:
The more one understands the history and theology of the Sabbath, the easier it is to comprehend this genuine Gospel doctrine.
Today, there is no excuse for anyone to misunderstand the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Christ for the church. This doctrine cannot be Sunday based, nor can it be a doctrine that prohibits work on the 7th day, thus bringing the church under the spell of the Judaizers.
There is only one Gospel Sabbath; it is the active and reformed version found in the Gospels. While it can only be on the 7th day, it is very different from what the SDA’s teach. Thus all denominations are wrong and must repent, even as those that seek Eternal Life must follow the true Christ of the Gospels.
How fitting that the genuine Sabbath is emerging from the SDA Community. What a pity it has taken so long. What a pity it is not being embraced with repentance and great Gospel joy from both former and present Adventists.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the genuine, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath
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Tom, you can't rewrite the NT like Thomas Jefferson did, you need to stay with the inspired word:
Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
I agree with you that Jesus answered the questions put to him about the Sabbath, but never gave a command that it would be in His new Kingdom and pointed out in Col 2:16, 17 that He was the reality of the shadow Sabbath. Until Christ died He had to keep the Sabbath the way His father wished him to keep it, the true intent of the Old Covenant Sabbath, Christ didn't Reform the Sabbath but clarified what the OC law says about the Sabbath. Was slavery meant to be part of Society forever?? Were women free to worship on whatever day they wanted since they are not mentioned???
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The Sabbath and the Spirit
Cadge; you have attempted to defend NCT through the typical proof texting method that features the change in the Covenants, the superiority of the Spirit over the law, and the supposed abolishment of the Sabbath by Paul. It is a nice sounding package that seems to make sense, especially to some former SDA’s.
Too bad it is wrong on so many levels, including this dishonest hermeneutic that ignores the Gospels and pretends that Jesus failed to articulate a Sabbath doctrine for the church.
To prove this last point, take a look at the texts you used to support your NCT position on the Sabbath. There are very few, if any, texts from the Gospels. And nowhere did you quote the words of Jesus about the Sabbath. Why is that?
It is great error to pretend that Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath or that he is the author and definer of the Gospel Sabbath. Those who follow in the footsteps of Marcion the Gnostic, and ignore the Gospel teaching of Christ, will never understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath correctly.
John 13:13 “You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.
Those that want to follow Christ, must call him lord and teacher, paying close attention to his Words including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.
NCT is NOT based on Jesus Sabbath teaching, but upon ignoring his views and pretending that Paul was entrusted to explain this doctrine to the church. Such reasoning is fatal for anyone that seeks Eternal Life.
Let’s take a closer look at your NCT manifesto in order to see how it is flawed and wrong.
Cadge quoted Paul: 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Rom 2:14,15
Cadge then said: So they, the Gentiles, lived by their consciences. And it says that the law was written in their hearts. What law? "For the law is fulfilled in one word, even this, thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself" Gal 5:14. The law written in their hearts is love to God which is proven by the love we have for our neighbor. They have compassion for their fellow man. That's the story of the good Samaritan.
Were these Gentiles "who have not the law" required to keep the Sabbath? No, they didn't have the law.
Tom replied: First off, the fact that all men have a conscience, and thus have a sense of right and wrong, is hardly a Gospel point.
The law does not save; not the Jewish law nor the Gentile law, or the law of conscience. No one can be saved by any law, which Paul is quick to point out.
Rom. 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Rom. 3:10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom. 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom. 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom. 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Second: While this argument about law does work to blunt the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s, proving it legalistic and wrong, it does nothing against the Reformed Sabbath, which does not conform to the 4th Commandment, and in fact does an end run around it.
It is important to understand the difference between the OC Sabbath, with its requirements to obey the law of the 4th commandment, (no work), versus the active, NC Sabbath with its amazing Gospel exemption from the OC Sabbath rules.
Fail to understand the difference between these two very different Sabbath doctrines, and the Gospel Sabbath will remain obscure and hidden.
Cadge asked: “Were these Gentiles "who have not the law" required to keep the Sabbath? No, they didn't have the law.
Tom said: Point # 1; No NC believer, Jew or Gentile was ever “required” to keep the OC Sabbath law. This was NOT the Sabbath that Jesus taught for the church. Until you understand this point, and realize that there are two very different doctrines of the Sabbath, you will never comprehend the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Point #2. All believers were required to be born again into a Jewish mindset, embracing their history and becoming a spiritual Jew. So the Gentiles had to adopt the Creation Story, as well as Abraham being their spiritual father and Moses as the lawgiver, etc.
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
While neither the Gentiles nor Jews were to place themselves under Jewish law, they must acknowledge it, and understand that Christians are not to live lawless lives and that the Moral law is still the definer of sin and the basis for Judgment.
Matt. 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Rom. 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
Listen to Paul speak about the law. Read this passage over and over until you can clearly understand what he is saying:
1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Do you see how Paul is not under the Law, but yet, not without it either?
2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
How fitting that there is a new Sabbath for this “new creature.” The OC Sabbath has “passed away,” replaced by the New and Reformed Gospel Sabbath.
Cadge said: But If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the Law. Gal 5:1“Peter…if thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews”. Gal 2:14.
Tom said: No Christian is under the Law or under the OC Sabbath of Moses. Thus the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the SDA’s is wrong. It is the Sabbath of the OC Jews, but Christ teaches a very different NC Sabbath for those that follow him. This is the point. The Spirit only points the church to the Reformed, Gospel Sabbath of Christ, not to any other Sabbath doctrine.
Cadge said: Bob2, there was a time when we didn’t “get it”, but now that we do, just as was with us, there yet seems to be a veil over the hearts of many that keeps them from understanding this most essential truth of the freedom from the law given us by God.
Tom said: The NCT crowd still does NOT “get it.” Their view of the law and the Gospel is very wrong, even as their proposed solution to the universal error of OC Sabbath keeping has fallen flat.
The “veil” is reference to the OC Sabbath law. The NC Sabbath allows all believers to work on the Sabbath and not be guilty of violating the 4th Commandment. While this sounds impossible and very wrong, it is what Christ clearly teaches.
Christ is the one that removes the veil of legalism, fear and guilt, replacing it with Gospel Freedom from the law, which is the basis for the Reformed Sabbath. When the Gospel is clearly and correctly understood, so too the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
The NC Sabbath underscores the fact that all believers are under grace and not law, even as they acknowledge the law and are not without it. It also shows that they have entered the Jewish Story, and are paying close attention to the teachings of Christ, who was also part of the Creation Story in Genesis.
Cadge quoted Paul: “But their minds were blinded, for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away ln the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Never the less, when it (their heart) shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away”. 2Cor 3:14-16.
Tom said: Again, this passage is a reference to the OC Sabbath. Adventist Reform is promoting the NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which features “freedom from the law” and the end of anyone judging our behavior or activity on the 7th day.
All that truly follow Christ will allow him to remove their OC mindset (veil) allowing them to embrace his Gospel Sabbath. When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Cadge said: “Now the Lord is that Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is (“Christ in you”, the Holy Spirit, “the hope of glory” as we are told in Col 1:27) there is liberty”2Cor 3:17.
Tom said: Why do you quote Paul about the Spirit when you can go to the Gospels and see what Jesus says about this doctrine?
I find it amazing that the NCT crowd refuses to study or quote the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels, preferring to get their theology second hand from Paul. Marcion made the same error. This is why NCT is so wrong and wicked. It refuses to be honest with the words of Christ in the Gospels. Just like Marcion, the Gnostic heretic.
Jesus teaches that the HS points to his words, which includes his Reformed, 7th day Sabbath.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
The Spirit points to the words and teaching of Christ, which includes his amazing doctrine about the active, NC Sabbath. The Spirit does not endorse OC Sabbath keeping, Sunday Sabbath keeping, or the no Sabbath view of NCT. It is a false spirit that promotes these errors.
As for “liberty,” the Gospel Sabbath is all about freedom from the law, which is why the Jews were so horrified at the teachings of Christ and sent him to the cross.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Christ was not the Lord of the OC Sabbath of Moses. Rather, he is claiming authority for the active and reformed, NC Sabbath. Misunderstand this difference, and one will end up like the SDA’s, who are very wrong about the Sabbath and the Gospel.
Cadge said: And we are changed by what, keeping a day, or checking off the list of the Ten Commandments daily? No, they were given to convict us of our sinfulness so that we may turn to the One whom all power was given, Jesus, that He may bestow it on us. See 2Cor 3:18.
Tom said: The Gospel is what changes sinners. The Spirit helps us understand the Gospel teachings of Christ, including his NC Sabbath, which was NOT given to the church to convict of sin, but rather, to illustrate that Gospel compassion is greater than the law and even above the OC Leviticical Priesthood.
Cadge said: Once we receive our sealing, (Eph1:13,14 & 4:30) the Holy Spirit, we are His, the righteous because God dwells in us and brings us into oneness with His Heart.. “Hereby know we that we dwell in Him and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit” 1John 4:13. This takes place of “the letter of the law”.
Tom said: To belong to Christ, one must follow the teachings, which include his NC Sabbath. Jesus is the foundation and the basis for all Gospel doctrine. To follow the Spirit is to embrace his teachings, which includes his correct view of the Sabbath. Thus, if Christ really “dwells in us,” it will be the same Christ that teaches the Reformed Sabbath in all four Gospels. No other.
1Cor. 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Those that embrace a false view of the Sabbath, like the SDA’s, NCT, or all the Sunday keepers, are proving that they do not have the Spirit of Christ, nor do they understand the Gospel correctly.
Today, it is clear that the Laodicean church, meaning all denominations, is following a false Christ of their own making. The many confused and wrong versions of the Sabbath prove this point.
2Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
2Cor. 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
Mark 13:22 for false Christ’s and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
There is only one Christ and one 7th day Gospel Sabbath that he teaches. Those that embrace “another Jesus” and another version of the Sabbath, are in great error and darkness.
Paul was not surprised that there were so many false teachers in the apostolic church and we should not be either. But few today seem to understand how bad things have become.
Acts 20:29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
2Cor. 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
2Cor. 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
2Cor. 11:15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
Cadge quoted Paul: “And such trust have we through Christ to Godward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; who also hath made us able ministers of the NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT, FOR THE LETTER KILLETH, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE!!!!! 2Cor 3:4,5,6
Tom said: The Spirit gives us life through the Gospel of Christ, which includes his teaching about the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath, -which contains an EXEMPTION from the letter of the law of the 4th Commandment. Thus the NC Sabbath is not condemned in this passage as you assume. Only the OC Sabbath.
Cadge quoted more Paul. “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER” Rom 7:6.
Tom replied: The OC Sabbath equals the “oldness of the letter.” The NC Sabbath represents the Gospel, and the “newness of the Spirit.”
Cadge quoted more Paul: “Knowing this, THE LAW IS NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine” 1Tim 1:9-10.
Tom said: This passage shows that the law has not been abolished. It also shows that the NC Sabbath is not under consideration because it contains an EXEMPTION from the law of the 4th commandment. Showing that the Gospel believer is not under Moses or the law, and that he is righteous (imputed) only because of faith in Christ.
Cadge said: We, who are in Christ having received the Holy Spirit, are no longer under the law, but it remains , “heaven and earth shall not pass” for those yet to be convicted of their sinfulness that they may turn to Christ and receive the anointing of the Holy Spirit to enter into what is stated aforehand.
Tom said: The NC Sabbath does not place any Christian under the law. In fact, it does the opposite, as all are allowed to violate the 4th commandment and still be innocent. Which is a remarkable and unique position that should stun every legalist and give them pause. This is what it did to the Jews, and this is what this doctrine will also do for the Laodiceans.
Cadge said: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
Tom said: Jesus claimed that God the Father showed him the active, NC Sabbath. He also teaches that the Spirit will support and represent his teaching, which includes his NC Sabbath. So the Spirit of truth supports the NC Sabbath, but not the OC version.
Cadge said: The Holy Spirit rules over us by our willing submission, convicts us of sin and empowers us to overcome and also further the Gospel commission.
Tom said: The Gospel teachings of Christ are to control our minds and behavior. The Spirit, which is subordinate to Christ, works to promote the teachings of Christ, which includes his Reformed, NC Sabbath.
1Cor. 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom. 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
So there is nothing in these passages that refute the NC Sabbath. Sorry.
Cadge said: The New Covenant is of the Holy Spirit in us, which is God in us to live out His will.
Tom said: The Holy Sprit fully supports the Reformed Sabbath teaching of Christ. Any that have the Spirit will also embrace what Christ so clearly teaches.
Cadge said: As we read the New Testament, which was given by God, we receive His direction to do the works of Him, which is correction for us over inherited and learned tendencies, and also works of compassion towards our fellow man. “Christ in you”; the anointing of the Holy Spirit, is what gives us the attributes of Jesus, which is essentially what makes us “a man after God’s own heart”.
Tom said: Those that read the NT honestly and correctly, will understand and embrace the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath of Christ. If the real Christ is “in us,” so too is his doctrine of the Sabbath.
Cadge quoted Paul: Therefore: “There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death” (The Ten Commandments) Romans 8:1,2
Tom said: The NC Sabbath features FREEDOM from the law, specifically as it relates to the 4th Commandment. Those who embrace the Gospel Sabbath, and make it an active day, are confessing that they understand the Gospel, and that the law, all law, has been subordinated to the teaching of Christ, which is the “law of Christ.”
While there are many Pauline texts that are against the OC Sabbath, none are against the NC Sabbath.
Cadge said: The law demands perfection under the pain of death, we can’t fulfill it. Even all the works that we do under the tutelage of the new Covenant writings will always fall short of the perfect requirement of the law.
Tom said: Agreed. Those who follow the Gospel are declared and considered righteous by God. They are saved by faith in Christ, not by law keeping, which is why the Reformed Sabbath features an exemption from the OC rules about Sabbath keeping. And why all can work on the 7th day and not be guilty. There has been a change in the Covenants, with the Reformed Sabbath leading the way.
Cadge said: This is why Christ in us is our Sabbath rest which Joshua could not give Israel. Only Jesus’ coming, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit can, as it was purposed to do. That’s the rest that Hebrews speaks of. It’s not about a day. A day is not conducive to salvation. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is.
Tom said: Jesus is our spiritual rest, 24/7. Thus there is no needed for a 7th day “rest.” Consequently, with our rest assured, the 7th day becomes a day of activity and good works. It is no longer a day that is controlled by the law. It is a Gospel day!
Cadge said: As Paul tells us, in Romans 14, that some keep one day or another, others keep every day alike. He could not say that if the if was a certain day to be kept lest we forfeit our eternal inheritance.
Tom said: Paul is not teaching anyone about the Gospel Sabbath in Romans, (or Colossians), so why should anyone go to such passages to find a clear articulation of this doctrine? Why not go directly to Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, in the four Gospels and see what he teaches about the Sabbath?
So once again, we see the NCT crowd trying to avoid the Gospels and ignoring the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Like Marcion, they marginalize the Gospels and run to some passage in Paul to make their dishonest and false point. Sad.
Jesus is the source of the NC Sabbath. Any that wants to understand this Gospel doctrine must go to Christ and learn from him. Those that play games and refuse to be honest with the written Word, are wolves in sheep’s clothing. They are acting like the Pharisees who hated Jesus’ position about the law and the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath and the Priesthood.
Cadge said: There is no new ‘reformed working Sabbath’; God says so.
Tom said: Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches an active NC, 7th day Sabbath for the church. He claimed that God the Father supported this new view, (which also included a changed Priesthood), and told him to promote it. THIS is why he was sent to the cross.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing;
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
This passage, which is about the NC Sabbath, shows that God endorsed it, and that Jesus was following God in this matter. It also says that those who refuse this Gospel doctrine are not honoring God or Christ. They will not receive Eternal Life.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
NCT is essentially calling Jesus a liar, even as it spits in the face of God. No Christian can embrace such reckless blasphemy and think they will receive Eternal Life.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
It is a serious and fatal mistake to ignore the Gospel teaching of Christ. Those who refuse to listen to Christ about the Sabbath or anything else, will be banished from the Kingdom of God.
I hope this rebuttal of NCT helps all to understand that there is only one Gospel and one NC Sabbath. All that wish to follow Christ for Eternal Life had better make sure they are following the genuine Christ of the NT and not a fraud.
The doctrine of the Sabbath is a good test doctrine to see if one understands the Gospel correctly. Let all “examine” their position on the Sabbath and compare it to what Jesus teaches. Is this the same Christ that is “in you”? If not, you have FAILED the test.
2Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?
Those who embrace the wrong view of the Sabbath have failed the test. They are following a false Christ and a false Spirit. The Christ “in them” is a fraud.
1John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
NCT is false doctrine promoted by a false spirit. Those who defend and promote it are making a fatal mistake. Sad.
Mark 4:9 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath
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Tom quoted:
1John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Tom and others, neither of these texts suggest the Decalogue. In fact Paul says he is under Christ's Law, not under the Law. I wonder which Law Paul is saying he is not under.
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