The Fraud of Church Tithing

tom_norris · 04-09-10 1:44 pm

Bob 2, the anti Sabbatarian, anti-nomian, said:

1. I am not anti Sabbatarian for these reasons:
a) I believe anybody can worship on Sabbath that wants, just that it is not salvific.

Tom said: First off, you are very confused. I have NEVER said that any kind of Sabbath keeping is salvific. So this is not the issue under discussion.

Second, anyone who thinks that Christ has “abolished” the Moral law, as you claim, is “against the law.”

The initial point in any discussion about the Sabbath is whether there is a Sabbath for the church. The church has said yes, and so too the apostles, but you say no.

I say you are wrong, and so too does the entire church, both RC and P. Thus billions of Christians repudiate your position every week for a good reason. Because there is a weekly Sabbath for the church. This is what Jesus teaches.

Bob 2 said: b) Jesus is my Sabbath, per 2 Cor 2:16, 17.

Tom said: Jesus NEVER claimed that he was anyone’s Sabbath, so you are making up your own doctrines and Bible verses. Which is why the Church has never embraced your “no Sabbath” view. So you need to understand you are standing outside the Kingdom of God with your views.

Moreover, to make such a claim is to bring Jesus down to the level of the law, and elevate the Law to the place of Christ. Big mistake.

Jesus represents the NC Gospel. Not the law, which is where the Sabbath originates. It is a great error to confuse the law with the Gospel, and this is exactly what you are doing by claiming that Jesus is the Sabbath.

Jesus is not the law, nor the Sabbath. He is our Savior and High Priest. He is our Righteousness, which the law demands, but he is not the law, much less the Sabbath Commandment.

Jesus is much greater than the Sabbath. He is salvific, but the Sabbath is not.

The SDA’s made the mistake of elevating the Sabbath to the point where it was salvific (for them). It was their Christ and their savior. But this was a great error. Neither the OC nor the NC Sabbath is salvific.

Jesus is not the Sabbath, or any other law.

Bob 2 said: I do not judge which day one keeps, since I believe #1a.

Tom said: The passage in Colossians is not about judging between different Sabbath days, (as in Sat vs. Sunday), but in how that weekly day is embraced.

In other words, Paul is defending the NC Sabbath and attacking the Judaizers and their legalism with this remark. No one, (like a Pharisee) is to tell anyone how they are to act on the Sabbath. Only Jesus, the High Priest of the Church, can give such direction to those that follow him.

According to Jesus’ teaching, all Gospel believers are free to do whatever good works they choose on the 7th day. They are all NC priests, and thus they are all exempt from the OC Sabbath laws that prohibited work.

So Jesus makes all the rules about the NC Sabbath for the church. No one else.

All that want Eternal Life, must follow the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath, when it comes to the doctrine of the Sabbath. Not Moses or anyone else.

Bob 2 said: Tom, Jesus only taught the way the OC should be kept, and taught the truth of how the leaders had corrupted what He and His Father had meant the OC Sabbath to be.

Tom said: Your view that Jesus Gospel teaching was meant for the Jews and not the Church is absurd and impossible. Jesus started his NC ministry by preaching the Gospel and promoting his very different and stunning Gospel Sabbath. This reformed Sabbath was such a major change in the way the Sabbath was viewed by the Jews, that it made an immediate impact and cause major debate.

Jesus preaching of the Gospel and the very different Gospel Sabbath that he promoted, was revolutionary for the Jews. This NC idea, that all were equal in the site of God, (all were priests), and that there was to be a major change in the way the Priesthood and the Temple were defined and operated, was almost incomprehensible to them.

Thus the reformed Sabbath represented a dramatic paradigm change in the Kingdom of God. One that upset the status quo, removing the elitist religious hierarchy, replacing it with the Church, where all were priests and all were equal.

Jesus reformed Sabbath was a slap in the face of the entire religious system. It was a public challenge to their authority and competence, as well as their control over the people. Thus the debate over the Sabbath in the Gospels is a battle between to Old and the New Covenants. A battle for religious power and control.

Today, the genuine Gospel Sabbath will have the same effect in the religious community. It will expose the entire church, meaning every denomination, as incompetent and very wrong about the law and the Gospel.

Thus another Gospel battle will erupt between false and true religion, and the Sabbath will, once again, be at the center of the debate.

One cannot be a Christian and refute Jesus teachings about the Sabbath or anything else. And it is this fact that will condemn all that refuse to embrace the REFORMED Sabbath of Christ.

There is only salvation in the Gospel. Those that correctly believe the Gospel, will also embrace the Gospel Sabbath. The two are forever linked.

Bob 2 said: Tom, then set the example and take your response to where it belongs, on the Sabbath thread. I'll follow you there

Tom said: No thanks. I have heard enough of your confused nonsense. Your delusional point of view has been easily refuted on a number of threads already. Enough is enough. You need to step back and understand you have lost the point.

There is a Sabbath for the church, even as the Moral Law has never been abolished for duty or justice.

Without the moral law, there is neither sin nor love. Those that think the law is gone, have destroyed the J/ C paradigm, which cannot operate in a state of lawlessness.

Bob 2 said: Tom, this is where plain logic shoots you down.

Tom said: Logic is not the basis for the Gospel.

Law is the context for the Gospel, even as the teachings of Jesus and the apostles explain and define the Gospel Story.

Moreover, the Protestant Hermeneutic must determine the meaning of any passage.

If you understood theology better, you would not be making a fool out of yourself by claiming that “Jesus is the Sabbath” and that “there is no longer any weekly Sabbath for the church.” Both views are absurd and heretical, clearly against the NT, including Colossians and Hebrews.

Bob 2 said: Jesus, after healing individuals, sent them to the temple per OC rules.

Tom said: So what? Jesus operated at the rare time in history when the OC was giving way to the NC. He was the greatest transitional person is history, which is why the history of the world is divided into Before Christ and After Christ.

The fact that Jesus was borne under the OC, and had to function within its context, in no way moots his NC Gospel teaching about anything, much less the Sabbath.

Understand that Jesus reformed Sabbath represented a major change in the priesthood, as well as a serious threat to those in charge of religion. Jesus was intentionally shifting the OC paradigm into a NC version, one that required a major reform for the Sabbath.

His enemies understood the danger posed by this new theology, which is why they decided to kill Jesus to protect their own interests. They thought that this action would put a stop this rebellion that threatened to make them all unemployed.

In the OC, only a few were priests and thus only a few had Sabbath exemptions. Thus most were not allowed to work on pain of death. But Jesus, without any permission, overturned thousands of years of Jewish teaching with his proposed Sabbath reforms.

All were now priests. Even the women! There was no longer a separate, Levitical priesthood.

This means, among other things, that there is a different kind of Sabbath for the church (both Jew and Gentile) to worship the Jewish God.

Thus Christ taught an active, working, 7th day Sabbath. One where work is no longer prohibited. It is a very different Sabbath from what all SDA’s have been taught.

Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

The shift from the OC to the NC created a number of new doctrines, including the Reformed Sabbath, even as it banished much of Judaism, including the Levitical priesthood and the doctrine of tithe, from the church.

Bob 2 said: He could not blast the leaders of the time as "whited sepulchers" if he had not revealed the NC, these "blasts" were for OC violations or corruptions, look a little closer, and he couldn't require NC tenets until after his death, "the spilling of blood" required for the institution of a covenant.

Tom said: The OC contained Gospel principles as well as those of law. Those that lived under the OC had the obligation to be honest and true to both God and man. Sin is sin, in both Covenants. And so too is love.

Had Jesus not died to make the NC valid, we would not need to follow his teachings, because there would be no NC to follow. But he did die, and thus the Gospels, which were all written AFTER he died, reflect his Gospel teaching for the church.

Thus the Gospels, which were all written after the cross, have been certified as true by the blood of Christ, even as everyone must assume the passion events are true before one can believe.

So the teachings of Christ in the Gospels are primarily for the church. Any that deny this point, and refuse to embrace Jesus Words, as if they came from God, have forfeited Eternal Life. They are cast out of the Kingdom of God.

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

Bob 2 said: If the person was a Jew, he would have taught the individual Jewish OC law. He would not expect NC law to be in effect, Christ's Law until His death. He certain could teach about His New Kingdom, the NC, but until His death He would not have rebuke anybody for correctly following the OC.

Tom said: Wrong. When Jesus started his NC ministry, he preached the Gospel and the Reformed Sabbath to the Jews. He did not teach the OC Sabbath to the Jews, but the NC version, which caused great controversy and debate.

However, those that correctly followed the OC would have recognized Jesus to be the Messiah. In fact, this is what Jesus said to those that doubted him.

John 8:56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Jesus was greater than the OT. He was the NC. But he is not the law, nor is he the Sabbath, or Tuesday or Thursday.

He is not a day, nor the OC, but the NC Savior of the world.

Bob 2 said: Tom, your issue here is not Paul, but Christ's example. Paul would have recognized the Gentile for what he is and tell him he does not need to keep the Jewish Sabbath.

Tom said: While Paul did not teach anyone that they were to follow the OC Sabbath, that does not mean he did not embrace the NC Sabbath. He did. It’s just that the NC Sabbath is so laid back and active, that it is not recognized as such.

Paul introduced the Gentiles to the NC Sabbath and preached the Gospel to them on that day. Those that represented the OC Sabbath caused trouble and refuted Paul.

So Paul is not an anti-Sabbatarian. He observed the NC Sabbath for all to see, but not the OC Sabbath.

Understand that the church is NOT to keep the OC Sabbath of the Jews. But they must follow the NC, Gospel Sabbath of Jesus. Which is a very active Sabbath, closely linked to the preaching and teaching of the Gospel.

A Sabbath not only promotes corporate Gospel worship on the 7th day, but also any kind of good activity and “work” on this day. Thus it is no sin for the Gospel believer to work at his job on the reformed 7th day. Those who think this is wrong, are under the OC. They do not understand the Gospel of Christ or Paul.

Today, there is no church that correctly understands the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath. This is what the SDA’s were supposed to proclaim. But they have failed for all to see. Now it is time to correct this great error.

Bob 2 said: Tom, Boy, you really do have this thing screwed up.

Tom said: Bob, my friend, anyone that thinks the Moral law has been abolished as a standard and guide, does not understand theology or church history correctly. This is not really a valid, credible, or educated view. Much less your other gems that claim Jesus is an OT figure and that his Gospel teachings were for the Jews and not the Church.

You need to take some college level courses and start reading more about theology and church history. You have much to learn.

Bob 2 said: The OC requires what it does.

Tom said: What does the OC require? Jesus was asked this question, so we don’t have to guess.

Jesus taught that the OC requires that we love God supremely and our neighbors as ourselves.

Matt. 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”

Matt. 22:37 And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’

Matt. 22:38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.

Matt. 22:39 “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’

Matt. 22:40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Lev. 19:18 ‘You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Deut. 6:5 “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Bob 2 said: It, taught by Paul, became obsolete as stated in Heb 8:13

Tom said: Ha! So it became obsolete in the NC to love God and our neighbors? Are you sure? This does not sound right to me. (Are you also sure that Paul wrote Hebrews?)

I think you need to go to your room and take a time out. You need to figure out a way to educate yourself about theology and church history.

Bob 2 said: Anyone can keep the Saturday Sabbath if they wish, but to no salvific advantage.

Tom said: There were two primary types of Sabbath keeping in the OT. One kind for the people who were forbidden to work, and a different type for the small minority of Levites, who had to work on the Sabbath.

So it is wrong to think that “anyone can keep the Sabbath” in any Covenant. Or that there is only one type of Sabbath under discussion.

There are two kinds of Sabbaths. The OC (non-priestly) and the OC (priestly) version. Only those that correctly embrace the Gospel can “embrace” the active NC, "priestly" Sabbath with a clear conscience.

Your view that there is no such thing as a NC Sabbath for the church has been correctly refuted from the very beginning of the church, starting with Jesus, even up to the present time.

Moreover, your position contradicts all four Gospels, as well as the rest of the NT, that you also do not understand correctly.

Bob 2 said: Every Jew has to accept Jesus the Messiah, TRUE SABBATH 2 Cor 2:17.

Tom said: No one referred to Jesus as the “True Sabbath.” Not Jesus and not any of the apostles. This is your own personal delusion. Which is why there is not one verse in the Bible that contains the phrase “true Sabbath,” much less one that claims Jesus is the Sabbath.

So no one has to “accept” Jesus as the true Sabbath, because this is not what the NT teaches. Anyone so foolish as to think otherwise has embraced error.

You need to repent of this nonsense and try to understand the NT better.

Bob 2 said: What you have said above makes you a Dispensationalist who believe the Jews are saved differently than the Christians.

Tom said: Bob, you speak as if you were a knowledgeable person about theology and church history when you are not. You need to study more and post less. You are not ready for a prime time debate about the Gospel or the Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: And that the Jews are still God's chosen people. OOOOOOKKK !! Wrong answer! Notice the story of the vine and the broken limbs in Romans 11: 11-24.

Tom said: Bob, the Jews are still God’s chosen and special people and so they will be for all time and eternity. After all, Jesus and the apostles are all Jews, and they will run the New Earth forever. Thus the Jews will always be in charge.

Furthermore, listen to Paul about this very point. He teaches that the Jews will always be the chosen, special people of God. Such a designation is “irrevocable.”

Rom. 3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?

Rom. 3:2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Rom. 3:3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

Rom. 3:4 May it never be!

Rom. 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom. 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Rom. 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Rom. 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Rom. 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Rom. 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Rom. 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Rom. 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Bob 2 said: Tom, you are wrong, Jesus taught that He was the TRUE REST in Matt 11: 28.

Tom said: Bob, your silly proof texting ways are worthless and annoying. You must have learned these incorrect hermeneutical tricks from the SDA’s?

You need to learn how to read the Word within the proper context. The very fact that you stopped at this one verse, which is a prelude to the introduction of the NC Sabbath in Matthew's Gospel, shows that you are not being honest with the context of this passage. Pitiful.

Bob 2 said: Tom, you don't have to tithe if you don't wish to.

Tom said: What kind of remark is that? Who said I did have to tithe? Not Jesus. Not Paul. Not the NT.

So what if the SDA’s and the Mormons teach this OC doctrine? They have no such authority to make up such things and pretend they are true.

I have no intention of ever paying tithe to anyone again. I was very wrong to allow the SDA’s to brainwash me on such a point. Once I understood the Gospel better, I repented of this false practice and will never again submit to such OC doctrine that empowers and sustains the enemies of the Gospel.

There can be NO tithing in the church. It is a sin to do so, even as it would be a sin to invite the Levites to come into the church and sacrifice animals on the podium.

Those that call for tithe, or pay tithe, or live off the tithe, are Old Covenant Christians. They are Judaizers. Like those confused Christians in Galatia. They have fallen from Grace and do not understand the Gospel correctly, much less the Two Covenants, the Sabbath, or anything else.

Bob 2 said: As God and Jesus have always worked, under the NC we may do the same determining when our bodies need rest.

Tom said: The NC Sabbath is less about physical rest and more about activity and good works.

Second, no one gets to determine if there is a Sabbath for the church or not, much less what day it is on, or how it is to be observed. Jesus has made this clear to those that want to follow him.

People either follow him or they don’t.

Bob 2 said: What you have missed is what Jesus taught, "Come to Me and receive Rest for your SOUL. That cannot be done by your version of the NC Sabbath, again it only gives rest for the body.

Tom said: Bob, you are so confused that I don’t think you understand much of this discussion. The NC Sabbath is not about physical rest at all. It is a working, active day that features congregational worship, communal meals, and all manner of additional activity, even work at ones job.

The OC Sabbath is more focused on rest and not working. But the NC Sabbath “works” the opposite. In fact, there is no longer a “preparation day” with the NC Sabbath, because all work, including cooking, is allowed on the Gospel Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: Tom, if the Sabbath was known to be kept as a mandate by all Christians at the time, why the need for this directive?? Because the keeping of the Sabbath was no longer a NC mandate.

Tom said: The Jewish church, and then the Gentiles, always observed a weekly Sabbath. The fact that it changed from the 7th to the 1st day of the week over time is beside the point under discussion. There was always a Sabbath for the church. ALWAYS.

Why? Because this was what Christ taught in all four Gospels. So while you think the Sabbath was never a “mandate for the church,” the church takes the opposite view. They view Jesus Sabbath teaching as duty for the church, even though they have made an error about the details.

At the end of time, when the Gospel is better understood, the NC Sabbath will also become come clear. Thus the Gospel Sabbath will condemn every church in the land, and underscore the fact that they are not following the Word, or the Gospel, and that they must repent.

Bob 2 said: Oh, and Tom, neither am I antinomian. I believe their are always standards of behavior, even in the NC era.

Tom said: Then why do you think there is no Sabbath for the Church? If the Moral law is still a standard in the NC, then why do you think there is no Sabbath for the church?

Why do you say the law is “abolished”?

The Sabbath of the Moral law has been revised and reformed, by Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, and the co-creator of the world, -for the church.

The OC 7th day Sabbath of the Jews has been replaced and updated with the Gospel Sabbath. Thus there is a New Covenant Sabbath for the Israel of God, the church. This is what Jesus teaches, and so too the apostles.

Today, the Laodiceans have the wrong view of the law, Gospel, and the Sabbath. This is why they are all condemned in the Pre Advent Judgment of the church. This is why all must REPENT and embrace the true Gospel, and the true Sabbath of the NC.

How fitting that the self-proclaimed experts on the Sabbath, the SDA’s, have also misunderstood. Although they did get the correct day, like the Jews, they also refused to embrace Jesus teaching about the Gospel and the Sabbath, just like the Jews.

The SDA’s have embraced the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees instead of the NC version that Jesus teaches. They too must REPENT and reform.

Bob 2 said: Paul taught of the Law of Christ, which was not the Decalogue.

Tom said: Love is the ultimate fulfillment of the Moral law.

Rom. 13:10 love is the fulfillment of the law.

This is why Jesus teaches so much about love, and so to Paul. The law of Christ is LOVE.

In fact, this is his “commandment” that he gives to all. That we should love God and man, even as we “abide” in the salvific and righteous “love” of Christ, who is love.

John 15:9 “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

John 15:11 “These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

John 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:14 “You are My friends if you do what I command you.

Love fulfills the law:

The NT echoes the Gospel teachings of Jesus about love. It is a primary goal of both law and the Gospel.

1Tim. 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.

Rom. 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Rom. 13:9 For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

Rom. 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1Cor. 13:3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

1Cor. 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,

1Cor. 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

1Cor. 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Gal. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Gal. 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Gal. 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

While many misunderstand Paul and think he has dismissed the law, this is hardly the case. Paul makes it clear that he is NOT “without law” even though he acts that way for the sake of the Gentiles.

Paul embraces “the law of God” but he is not under it. Yet at the same time, he claims to be “under” the law of Christ. Which is love, and the teachings of Christ.

1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

There is an “obedience of Faith” for all that claim to follow Christ. And the Gospel Sabbath is part of this obedience.

Rom. 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

Rom. 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

Bob 2 said: You know you remind me of the one man show that use to picket outside my hometown church.

Tom said: Ha! There is much more going on here than a simple protest of a local church. A clear path of Gospel theology, prophecy, and doctrine is emerging for the Laodicean church. There is even a (seemingly) new doctrine of the Sabbath for all to marvel at!

Adventist Reform represents a paradigm shift of historic proportions. Thousands are now much better informed about the Gospel and church history than ever before, and many view things in a very different light. Thus a new path is emerging for all to see. Be thankful.

Eph. 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

Eph. 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

Eph. 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 04-09-10 5:33 pm

Tom, be a good example and get on the right thread with the right subject. As for my answering or interlining again, the same stuff, I gave my final answer. I direct you to the thread that is about the Sabbath and the .com thread that is rather lengthy and I think even includes some of your observations. I've given my final answer. We both are chasing our tails unless you can come up with something new. If if isn't salvific, it really doesn't matter, and I can't see how it could be the final test with your admission keeping it isn't salvific. HUH?????

tom_norris · 04-10-10 6:07 pm

Bob 2 said: Tom, be a good example and get on the right thread with the right subject.

Tom said; I am going to be a good example and conclude this discussion with you. We agree to disagree about the law and the Gospel, hermeneutics, church history, eschatology, and the Sabbath, etc..

In the past, I have dealt with many like yourself that were obsessed with some error, like the IJ or tithe. No matter how much evidence was placed on the table, it made no difference to their views. They were going to “believe” a certain point no matter what, -forever.

It was as if they were standing on rock solid principle, when they were only defending error, delusion, and wishful thinking. Such cultic and dysfunctional thinking is epidemic in many denominations.

So you are acting the same way as the IJ fanatics did back on JR’s ATomorrow site. Stubbornly and incoherently. But the facts overwhelmed their positions and rendered their views worthless.

In your mind, you stand beyond correction, because you have made up your mind that there is “no weekly Sabbath for the church” and that “Jesus is the Sabbath.” The fact that this is not what the NT teaches, seems irrelevant to you.

This is how many people view religion. They just pick and choose whatever point fits their fancy, and declare it so. There is no interest in hermeneutics or serious study about the teaching of Jesus.

Such a careless and uneducated attitude renders many incapable of critical thinking; unable to understand the real issues, much less anything that refutes their confused views. Thus the Gospel eludes them. They will never understand unless they repent of their bad attitudes.

I think you are the only one around trying to promote the NO Sabbath doctrine. I don’t think there is any organized church in the world that embraces such an absurd view? Thus you may be primed to start another “Christian” denomination. Good for you! The Laodicean Circus can always use another fresh act.

What day will your new church be meeting? And how often? Will you meet once a month on Tuesday? Or will you meet every other Thursday? Or maybe you will hold services every day, except the 7th day, just to make the point that there is no Sabbath for the church. Let me know when you figure all this out.

Bob, your continued promotion of the "No Sabbath" position places you outside the Gospel Story and church teaching, as well as outside the rules of this site. We are not here to destroy Adventism and repudiate the primary pillar of the 3rd Angels Message, which is the Sabbath. NO.

We are here to repair the Advent Movement, which includes resolving the Sabbath doctrine and finally getting it correct. We are not here to promote additional false doctrine or remove whatever truth has been found by the Pioneers.

What you call “New Covenant Theology” is nothing more than uneducated, anti Sabbatarian, delusion. It is utter nonsense that is not worth much more discussion.

At this point, you are part of the problem, not the solution. Sad.

Bob 2 said: As for my answering or interlining again, the same stuff, I gave my final answer. … I've given my final answer.

Tom said: Too bad it was the wrong answer. Jesus is not the Sabbath, as you claim. Thus you have embraced a false Christ and a worthless gospel.

Sorry. No Eternal Life for you or for anyone that abuses the Word and misunderstands the Gospel to such an extent. For your sake, I hope you live long enough to change your answer and find the Gospel.

But most will not understand.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Bob 2 said: We both are chasing our tails unless you can come up with something new.

Tom said: Ha! You only speak for yourself. You are indeed chasing phantom doctrines, and thus you are indeed very confused about the Gospel.

However, I understand the Gospel as well as church history and hermeneutics, and I am not ashamed to say so.

Furthermore, the Gospel is not “new.” So there is no need to come up with anything novel as you think. In fact, the NC Sabbath that we are discussing has it origins in the 1st century.

This REFORMED Sabbath accompanied Jesus Gospel ministry and was part of his NC message, and thus it is very old. It only seems new to us today because it has been ignored and hidden for so long.

There is a Sabbath for the church, and it is ludicrous and futile to try and claim otherwise.

Bob 2 said: If the Sabbath isn't salvific, it really doesn't matter, and I can't see how it could be the final test with your admission keeping it isn't salvific. HUH?????

Tom said: Only the Gospel is salvific. This fundamental point will stand forever.

But so too will the fact that there is a Reformed Sabbath linked to the Gospel, for the church. When the Laodicean church correctly understands the law and the Gospel, the Gospel Sabbath will also emerge for all to see. Those whose eyes are opened will see, while others will remain blind.

The NC Sabbath is forever linked to the Gospel and is part of the Gospel, even part of the righteousness by which all are saved.

The Sabbath is an indicator of how well one understands the law and the Gospel. It is a public litmus test to see who is following the teachings of Jesus and who is just pretending, and misreading the Word.

At this point in time, every church in the land has a false Gospel and a false Sabbath. Including the SDA’s! All Laodiceans are blind and naked. Which is why they must all repent of their false Gospel and false Sabbath, and a long list of other errors.

It is time for the Advent Movement to repent for what they did to Dr. Ford and embrace the Protestant Gospel with both hands.

It is time for them to repent for their OC Sabbath, (as well as tithing and the IJ, etc) and embrace the reformed, 7th day, “working” Sabbath of the Gospels.

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath.

One day, this truth will shake the church, preparing the faithful for the great Tribulation and the Day of Judgment.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 09-11-10 5:55 pm

Tithing: It’s about the $$$

Today, the SDA leaders are dishonestly intent on defending their false doctrine of tithe.

Even though they are not able to come online and defend this doctrine, and they know that the Apostolic Church did not practice tithe, they still pretend otherwise, in a great mockery of the NT.

They are great liars for all to see.

1John 2:21 no lie is of the truth.

Col. 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,

Moreover, the church leaders also know that Ellen White refused to follow the SDA doctrine of tithe. It is a published fact. But the SDA’s are so dishonest, that they just don’t care what is true and what is not. They are arrogant and proud deceivers. All should beware.

Ellen White and Tithe:

Most people do not know that Ellen White does not fully support tithe. Even though the dishonest leaders teach she does, the facts are what matter.

Not to long before Ellen White died, she was confronted by an angry church leader who heard she was not paying her tithe properly. Ellen White replied that not only was he correct about what he had heard, but that she had no intentions to change her ways. Why? Because, she had been shown, for many years, that the SDA doctrine of tithe was flawed. So she refused to follow it. And she never changed her mind.

How many SDA’s have been told this true account about Ellen White and tithe?

Thus, at the end of her life, Ellen White refused to fully comply with the practice tithing. And guess what? The White Estate has always known this fact, but they allow the Review and everyone else to make up stories about Ellen White, because it serves their purposes.

How sad that the modern church leaders don’t care about the facts or the truth. The Review routinely prints falsehood about church doctrine and history, while the White Estate has made myth making into a cottage industry. But few tithe paying SDA’s seem to care, at least those still in the church.

This is beyond outrageous. The SDA’s have degenerated into a Sabbatarian Cult of deception and delusion. All should be warned about their dishonest, Judaizing, and money-grubbing ways. They want money, but what do they have in exchange? False doctrine and mountains of deception. They have no Gospel or Eternal Life for sale, and those unfortunate enough to think otherwise are in great danger.

Below is an apologetic about tithing, written by a church employee, trying to make people think that this scam is valid doctrine. One that if practiced faithfully, will result in “connecting our hearts to God and the church.” But there are no NT texts to support such false doctrine, because there is no such doctrine.

Moreover, the SDA claim that tithe paying results in being rewarded by God in a tangible, material, manner is absurd, making God into our personal butler, for the right price that is. In this case, employment is the carrot to scare people into paying tithe.

Pay tithe and Stay Employed:

“…members have seen temporal blessings, Cortés noted. In New Jersey, where unemployment rates have hit 10.2 percent this year and were 9.5 percent at the time this article went to press, “the [members] are keeping their jobs. We have not too many people out of their jobs because God is blessing; some have lost [one job], but they are getting another job.”

So if one pays a tithe to the SDA church, God will make sure they have a job! Thus paying tithe in a recession is better than unemployment insurance. God will keep you working so you can pay him tithe!

Too bad there is no truth in any of this drivel. Anyone that thinks Tithe is a legitimate doctrine of the church misunderstands the Gospel, and the very fundamentals of the Christian Faith. Which means that the SDA’s do not understand the Gospel, nor are they saved, as they arrogantly claim. It also means they are great liars.

Tithe connected to Eschatology

As the SDA’s continue to invent ways to promote the false doctrine of tithe, they go on to claim that tithe is as important as eschatology.

“The tithe principle is as foundational to stewardship as Daniel 2 is foundational to eschatological prophecy,” Reid said in an interview. “The biblical principles of money management are all important, how I manage the other 90 percent. But the tithe is the baseline.”

And, as Reid put it, “When Jesus returns He’s going to say, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant’ to the group who managed their money faithfully.”

Such self-serving double-talk would be comical, if it were not the means to hide the Gospel from people. It is outrageous to teach that Jesus is going to judge people at the Second Coming based on how they “managed their money and pay tithe.” Luther would curse them, and so too Paul.

The SDA’s have a very different Gospel from Paul. They have a “distorted,” Old Covenant, hybrid Gospel, that features Levitical tithe as well as the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees. It is a contrary set of legalistic doctrines that deserve to be cursed to hell.

Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel 1contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

I can assure everyone that Jesus is NOT going to reward any for following false, Old Covenant doctrine in the church. It is delusional to think that false doctrine will be celebrated at the 2nd Coming.

In fact, the opposite is the case. Those that pay tithe in the church will be cursed and EXCLUDED from the Kingdom of God because they have fatally misunderstood the Gospel and refused to repent.

Tithe paying in the church is a form of Galatianism. It is the modern way to follow the Judaizers, and to confuse the Old Covenant with the New, thus forming a worthless hybrid of eternal death. Tithe is a very wicked doctrine that must be repudiated by any that want to embrace the historic Gospel of the Apostolic Church.

Tithing is a false doctrine. Period. Those who practice it have embraced the Old Covenant Levitical system, even as they have also fallen for the Old Covenant Schoolmaster Sabbath, and many other incorrect things.

In short, the SDA’s today fail to understand the New Covenant. There can be no doctrine of tithe in the church, nor is there any such a doctrine in the NT. This is why it is so wrong and false. It is not a Gospel doctrine, which is why no one in the apostolic church ever practiced this fraud and the SDA’s are the world’s greatest liars to teach otherwise.

Money Corrupts

The modern SDA’s are very dishonest and corrupt, and they have no plans to repent. Every year they bring in about $2 BILLION from their false, OC, doctrine of tithe. Such a stream of free wealth has encouraged their leaders to think that false doctrine is not so bad. So they promote what is false, refusing to hear Gospel truth and correction. In other words, the SDA church cares far more about money than truth.

In fact, the SDA leaders are addicted to the love of money and Empire Building. They love them both. But this is very wrong. The church is to be “free from the love of money.” (Tim 3:3) and from the control of a hierarchy.

1Tim. 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Unless the SDA’s repudiate their Old Covenant doctrine of tithe, confessing this great error of pretending to be the storehouse, they are doomed.

Unless the SDA’s dismantle their priestly, Old Covenant hierarchy, and switch to a Protestant from of church government, they are doomed.

Unless the SDA’s repent and embrace the genuine Gospel, including the Reformed, Active, Gospel Sabbath, they are doomed.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

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TITHING; IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT MONEY

BY MARK A. KELLNER, for the Adventist Review

Here’s a paradox: even though modern-day tithing is usually applied by most Seventh-day Adventists to their monetary increase—we generally are paid by check or direct deposit, not in bushels of wheat—tithing really isn’t about the money.

It’s about having our hearts connected to God and to His work, church members and experts agree.

“This is a spiritual matter. It’s not about money. It’s about loyalty and faithfulness,” declared José Cortés, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor who is president of the church’s New Jersey Conference. There are 13,000 baptized members in New Jersey, he says, and tithe growth in 2010 is an impressive 15 percent, with the conference on track to receive “over $11 million” this year.

It’s not about the bottom line, he adds, but rather directing people’s thoughts toward God in every area of life. Planning for a statewide emphasis on stewardship began two years ago, he said, as the storm clouds of the current U.S. economic difficulty began to gather.

After first working with his local pastors to ensure they were each responsible stewards, the message spread to the membership. Cortés told his pastors they needed to emphasize to members who may not have been participating the value of returning tithe. “Some churches were [returning] only 35 percent to 45 percent of [their] potential.”

As a result of emphasizing the spiritual discipline, members have seen temporal blessings, Cortés noted. In New Jersey, where unemployment rates have hit 10.2 percent this year and were 9.5 percent at the time this article went to press, “the [members] are keeping their jobs. We have not too many people out of their jobs because God is blessing; some have lost [one job], but they are getting another job.”

There are other benefits as well: for the first time in a long while, all teachers at Seventh-day Adventist schools in New Jersey “have a decent salary, everybody is paid according to policy,” Cortés reports.

But he emphasized that it’s the spiritual aspect of sharing in the responsibility for God’s work that is essential: every morning at 5:30 a.m., he told Adventist Review in an interview, Cortés is on his knees praying for conference constituents, often referencing a list sent in by pastors. Knowing that their leaders are praying specifically for them enhances members’ loyalty to the church, he said.

What’s happening in New Jersey is of a piece with the rest of the world church, statistics reveal: “Despite a global economic recession spanning most of the past quinquennium, annual worldwide tithe for the past five years grew more than 40 percent, increasing from US$1.3 billion in 2004 to $1.8 billion in 2009,” according to a report by General Conference treasurer Robert E. Lemon during the 2010 General Conference session in Atlanta, Georgia.1

And while the Christian research firm The Barna Group reported “in 2007. . . research revealed that just 5 percent of adults tithed,”2 Seventh-day Adventists in North America clock in at approximately 60 percent of members who attend services returning tithe, according to G. Edward Reid, stewardship director for the North American Division.

“The tithe principle is as foundational to stewardship as Daniel 2 is foundational to eschatological prophecy,” Reid said in an interview. “The biblical principles of money management are all important, how I manage the other 90 percent. But the tithe is the baseline.”

Why aren’t more members tithing? Reid says it may stem from a lack of education of the membership by some pastors.

“There’s been a dearth of teaching in that area,” Reid said. “Here’s the bottom line: it is more ignorance on the part of members than it is obstinacy. . . . Selfishness comes naturally; but you have to be taught generosity and financial faithfulness. [But] once you experience it, you wouldn’t want to go back the other way at all.”

At least one church member agrees that tithing is vital: Leon C. Gottberg from Willits, California, says that during his 76-year life span, so far, he’s learned that the value of tithing goes beyond monetary benefits.

“I would almost say it never was an endeavor; it was a pleasing part of our Christian experience. We never questioned it. Even when my wife didn’t have enough money to put food on the table, [we tithed],” Gottberg, who goes by “Lee,” said. “It’s what one does when one lives with God. Tithing to us is a joy.

“When times were more tough and we continued to tithe, one of the main reasons is I was able to say, ‘That’s one thing the devil can’t take away from me,’” he said.

Gottberg says there have been instances of material benefit. One time, when his car’s tires were all bald, a dealer gave him four used-but-serviceable ones and mounted them free of charge; he and his wife found a prize homesite in a desired location at a price they could afford. But the main dividend is a greater closeness to God.

“You put your trust first in Him . . . trusting that He was going to fulfill His word,” Gottberg said.

A Proud History
The history of tithing in the Seventh-day Adventist Church goes back to early days. In 1859, four years before the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists was formally organized, Adventists meeting at Battle Creek, Michigan, were instructed to regularly set aside funds for the Lord’s work. This became more clearly defined in the years that followed, and by 1864 there was no doubt: tithing, the return of 10 percent of one’s increase, or income, was the standard.

“He [God] places His treasures in the hands of men, but requires that one tenth shall be faithfully laid aside for His work. He requires this portion to be placed in His treasury. It is to be rendered to Him as His own; it is sacred and is to be used for sacred purposes, for the support of those who carry the message of salvation to all parts of the world,” were the words of Ellen G. White, a pioneering cofounder of the movement, in volume 6 of Testimonies for the Church, first published in 1900.3

In a manuscript read to the San Jose, California, State Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in January 1907, White affirmed not only the importance of tithing, but also the fact that the church and its people would have more to share if all were faith-fully returning tithe: “There should be an abundant supply in the Lord’s treasury, and there would be if selfish hearts and hands had not withheld the tithes or made use of them to support other lines of work.”4

Adds Reid, “One of the biggest things I encounter is people get sideways of somebody in the church or in the conference office, and say, ‘I’m going to send my tithe to XYZ’ . . . but the tithe, according to the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, is totally nondiscretionary. . . . It is holy and not to be diverted.”

Other Christian authors have also expressed dissatisfaction with a contemporary casualness toward tithing.

“I grow very impatient with folks who oppose tithing [and claim] they are so spiritually minded that they see the tithe as stopping short of what God asks for,” said Douglas L. LeBlanc, a veteran Episcopalian journalist and author of Tithing: Test Me in This, a book that studies the approaches of several Christians to the tithing question (Thomas Nelson, 2010).

“It’s not as though God is crippled without our tithing, but God, through His generosity, invites us to become part of what He is doing through tithing,” LeBlanc says. God, he adds, “can come up with the finances needed for something in whatever way He chooses, but why resist that? Why would we say, ‘No thanks, I’d rather spend it on a video rental or a good meal somewhere.’ . . . I would be far more hopeless if I weren’t at least tithing.”

And, as Reid put it, “When Jesus returns He’s going to say, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant’ to the group who managed their money faithfully.”

________
1 As reported in Elizabeth Lechleitner, “Membership, Financial Audits Key to Adventist Church Growth, Leaders Say,” Adventist News Network, June 26, 2009, http://news.adventist.org/2010/06/member ship-financial.html, accessed August 2, 2010.
2 Barna Group, “New Study Shows Trends in Tithing and Donating,” April 14, 2008, www.barna.org/barna-update/article/18- congregations/41-new-study-sho?loc= interstitialskip, accessed August 2, 2010.
3 Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church, vol. 6, p. 386, as cited in Arthur L. White, “Highlights of the Beginning of the  Tithing System,” Ellen G. White Estate, www.whiteestate.org/issues/Tithe-H&U.html#Highlights, accessed August 2, 2010.
4 White, Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, p. 249.

_______________
Mark A. Kellner is news editor for Adventist Review and Adventist World magazines. This article was published September 9, 2010.

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.ph … 30&page=18

tom_norris · 01-28-11 10:19 pm

QUESTION: Why is the tithe something not biblical?

Every church seems to have this tithe thing, so why would the SDA's be wrong, if you mean they have it wrong?

And why do you think (just a question) that you have all truths on everything you say?

Kevin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer: Tithing is biblical. It was an Old Covenant Jewish doctrine that supported the Levitical Priesthood, who were given no land. Thus, all the rest of the tribes of Israel had to pay tithe to support the Priests. This is how they lived.

Num. 18:24 “For the tithe of the sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance; therefore I have said concerning them, ‘They shall have no inheritance among the sons of Israel.’”

However, in the New Covenant, all the members of the church, both male and female, are now considered Priests of God, with Christ being the High Priest of his Temple, which is the church.

1Pet. 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Because there are no Levites in the church, much less any type of separate priesthood, there cannot be tithe. Which is why the NT does not ever show any apostles practicing tithe or even one Christian paying tithe. There can be no separate priesthood or tithing in the church, much less a hierarchal organizational system. The church must be Congregational in nature, and all are priests.

Mark 10:42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them.

Mark 10:43 “But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;

Mark 10:44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.

Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The SDA’s are organized like the Roman Catholic hierarchy. Which proves that they are not Protestant as they pretend. Those at the top receive tithe and control the members. If you don’t pay tithe, you cannot serve in the local church, or work for the Denomination. You are treated like a second-class citizen, your gifts are denied and your loyalty to the organization questioned.

Such an Old Covenant organizational model is forbidden in the NT, but the SDA’s don’t really care what Jesus teaches. They have made up their own rules about many things, and they have no intention of repenting. They have become wealthy because of false doctrine, and money is all that really matters to them. Thus their Pastors are instructed not to discuss the possibility that tithe could be false doctrine. Any that correctly reach such a conclusion are immediately terminated.

Although the SDA’s strongly and loudly teach that tithing is a NT doctrine, they are great liars and fools. They like this false doctrine because it has made them rich. (They are worth about $30 BILLION). Thus their leaders have sold their souls for wealth and have spurned the Gospel and deceived their members. They are great wolves for all to see. Beware.

Luke 16:13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”

There was absolutely no tithing in the apostolic church at any time, and this historic fact is beyond rational dispute. I challenge anyone to find the doctrine of tithing in the apostolic church. It cannot be done, because there was no such doctrine in the church.

Acts 2:45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.

Heb. 13:16 And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

The fact that many churches today practice tithe only shows how confused and wrong Laodiceans are about the New Covenant. But the SDA’s are the worst offenders. They practice tithe more than anyone else, even as their entire church structure is based on this false doctrine.

Tithing is an Old Covenant doctrine, not a New Covenant one. Anyone that is so foolish to practice tithe in the church is only proving that they do not understand the Gospel or the system of “sharing” that the early church developed.

Here is a tithe discussion for your further research:

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=239

As for having all the truth, I would never make such a claim. Only Christ was a perfect theologian, he alone had all the truth. The better we understand his Word the closer we all come to a knowledge of the truth.

1Cor. 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

1Cor. 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

1Cor. 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

1Cor. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 03-20-11 11:15 am

Ellen White & Tithe; The Untold Story

No one today should think the SDA Church is honest, much less open to criticism or Gospel Reform. The Denomination is controlled by an arrogant, unbiblical hierarchy, which has manipulated both church history and doctrine for their self-serving quest of Empire building. From the beginning of the Takoma Park White Estate, the leaders dishonestly suppressed and misrepresented Ellen White’s views about many things, including the doctrine of tithe.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm

While it is true that the leaders had a plan to eventually tell the truth about the great 1888 fight between Uriah Smith and Ellen White, they never did. Thus the White Estate is still refusing to explain what happened in 1888, and to confess that Arthur White misrepresented Ellen White’s views about the law and the Gospel, as well as many other things, including the Investigative Judgment and even the doctrine of tithe.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

Ellen White Suppressed

Although the Adventists teach that Ellen White had spiritual gifts, and that her writings “are a continuing and authoritative source of truth,” they don’t really mean what they say, because they often repudiate and abuse her. The SDA leaders became experts at manipulating Ellen White’s writings, hiding what they didn’t like, and making her say what they wanted her to say.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225

One of their favorite tricks is to quote from her pre- 1888 writings and pretend that she never changed her mind on any position. By suppressing her later, changed view, it is made to appear that the mature Ellen White believed X, when she really believed Y.

This is why they had to hide so much material about 1888, because this is when she changed her mind about the law and the Gospel, a point that no one in the White Estate wanted to admit. So they hid this destructive Gospel debate and promoted a fictionalized account to their own liking. They also did the same thing about Ellen White’s view of tithing, which is the subject of this post.

This is why the SDA’s must be called liars and hypocrites, because this is what they are. They have not been honest about Ellen White’s view of Tithe, nor with how the NT deals with church finance, which alone determines all doctrine. The SDA leaders defy the apostles; even as they ignore their Pioneers and believe whatever myths they want to believe.

Although many SDA Pastors know full well that there is no such doctrine as tithe in the NT, they are forced to teach this false doctrine or be fired. The fact that no such doctrine as tithe exists in the New Covenant is beside the point for those who have sold their souls for a paycheck. The apostles do not teach this OC doctrine and thus it is a lie for anyone to say otherwise.

Furthermore, Ellen White does NOT support tithe to the extent the leaders have claimed. Which means the SDA’s have also been lying about her support of this doctrine. It is time for the SDA’s to repent for their many years of deception about Ellen White and the doctrine of Tithe.

In addition, I note for the record, that the Denomination is full of scandal and general corruption. So much so, that a group has been formed to try and clean up this horrible situation. But things will never get better until the SDA’s learn how to tell the truth, repent, and repudiate both tithe and the anti-Gospel Hierarchy that has led them astray. The Advent Movement can only be saved through major doctrinal reform and re-organization.

See: Members for Church Accountability

http://www.advmca.org/index.php

Hypocrisy of the SDA’s

The SDA’s proudly teach that Ellen White had “spiritual Gifts.” They claim that the Spirit guided her in a remarkable manner and thus all should pay careful attention to her views.

But there is a problem. If the Adventists think she is so authoritative and full of spiritual insight, why do they disrespect and ignore her? Why do they claim to follow Ellen White’s Counsel and Testimony, but then suppress, ignore, and repudiate her views?

Here is the official church view of Ellen White. They call her the “Lord’s Messenger” and an “identifying mark of the SDA church.” Her writings are viewed as a “continuing and authoritative source of truth.”

18. The Gift of Prophecy:  One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth, which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

For Adventists, Ellen White is held in the highest regard. During most of the 20th century, every doctrine contained her explicit approval through her proxy, the White Estate. Thus one can see Ellen White’s writings in every doctrine, article, book, and Sabbath School lesson, even in the church manual. She is quoted more than scripture and more than any other Pioneer, even as the Denomination has set up a publishing empire in her name, churning out new Ellen White books as if she were alive and full of energy in the basement of the General Conference. There is no one in the history of the SDA church that is more authoritative then Ellen White. Or so they say.

So why don’t they listen to her? Why don’t they pay attention to what she says and writes?

SDA’s Dishonest About Ellen White

The Denomination has not been honest with Ellen White. Although the church took control and purchased all her manuscripts and writings in the 1930’s, including her daily diaries and all her private letters, the leaders suppressed much of this material. Then they purposefully misrepresented her views about the Gospel, Law, Judgment, hermeneutics, and many other things, including Tithe.

The White Estate has acted criminally in this matter. They have betrayed Ellen White and their charter, perpetrating a great publishing fraud on the Advent people and the public. Millions have been misled by this shameful fraud, which has not been confessed or corrected.

This is why I say the SDA leaders are great liars and hypocrites for all to see, even as the White Estate is a criminal enterprise that specializes in propaganda and deceit. I have been in the White Estate and I know what I am talking about. No one should trust the White Estate, or what any SDA claims about Ellen White. It is probably not true.

The Adventists were, and still are, deceiving the public about Ellen White. It started in the late 1930’s; from the very moment they purchased her large database and moved it to Takoma Park, along with a young Arthur White. The manipulation of Ellen White’s writings became the basis for Traditional Takoma Park Adventism. Which led directly to the dishonest trial of Dr. Ford at Glacier View, and his exile for telling the truth.

The White Estate used Ellen White’s writings to dishonestly support their own legalistic agenda, which has now self-destructed into pluralism and a corrupt hierarchy for all to see. They made little effort to honestly convey the historical Ellen White to the church, and in fact worked hard to cover up her true views.

The Advent Movement is imploding because they have ignored Ellen White and repudiated her mature views all these years. Now they lack direction and focus, as well as Gospel truth. In order to survive, much less go forward, they must repent and better understand their historic mission before it is too late.

Ellen White Misrepresented

Today, we know that the mature Ellen White does not support Traditional Adventism, much less Pluralism, which is the present policy of the church. In fact, the mature Ellen White does not even fully support tithe as the leaders have claimed all these years. In fact, she shockingly claimed that the Spirit was leading her away from this doctrine, and thus she refused to comply with church doctrine when asked to do so.

Equally stunning is the fact that Ellen White never believed that the IJ was a “pillar” in the Three Angels Messages, as the White Estate teaches to this very day. Thus all modern SDA’s have been taught pure myth on this point. The IJ was never viewed by Ellen White or any of the Pioneers, as the Judgment Pillar from Historic Adventist. But very few know this fact, which separates Ellen White from Traditional Adventism, proving that she does not support such confused theology.

This false idea that Ellen White claimed the IJ to be a fundamental doctrine is the result of many years of incompetence and utter disregard for the truth by the Takoma Park apologists. The leaders have manipulated the record so badly, and told so many lies about Ellen White and denominational history, that they have confused themselves, even as they came to believe their own double-talk and fiction. Pitiful.

In fact, there is very little that the church teaches today that would pass for honest history, much less be approved and supported by Ellen White. But few know this fact, because the SDA leaders have worked hard to hide the real Ellen White and promote endless propaganda to the public in her name. The White Estate is not an honest archive or publisher, and no one should think otherwise. Ellen White would condemn them if she were alive, even as she would demand a full correction of the record.

The leaders have never told the full truth about Ellen White’s views or church history. Which explains why so much material was being carefully guarded and hidden by the White Estate all these years. By the time this material was discovered in 1979, (by Tom Norris), the damage had been done, even as the church once more covered up their crime and pretended to be innocent.

Generations have been raised to embrace a fictionalized version of Ellen White and thus it was only a matter of time before there was confrontation between the facts and Arthur White’s manipulated and false version. There was, and still is, a great fraud taking place in the White Estate. They need to stop hiding the real Ellen White, repent, and correct the record.

See:

http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … orris.html

http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … to-tom-nor

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

White Estate Not Honest

The SDA’s have turned out to be great liars for all to see. The leaders have been caught hiding and manipulating Ellen White’s writings for their own purposes. They made things appear as if whatever the church taught had her full and unquestioned support. But the facts were often very different; and now the White Estate needs to repent for misrepresenting Ellen White’s views about 1888 as well as the IJ, and even the doctrine of tithe.

Instead of telling the real story of Ellen White, and honestly representing her views to the Advent people, the White Estate created a fraud; and manipulated her to support whatever they wanted. They pretended she never made an error or changed her views about doctrine, when neither points were true.

Ellen White, over time, changed her views about the Sabbath, the Law, the Gospel, and even tithe. But these changes have been downplayed and denied, even as the White Estate purposefully uses her early statements to counteract her more mature views, which are then suppressed.

When the 20th century Adventists needed the mature, post 1888 Ellen White, what they got from the White Estate was the immature, legalistic, pre-1888 Pioneer, who did not fully understand the gospel. This dishonest bait and switch has ruined the Advent Movement and sent them into great confusion and schism.

If ever there were a time when the Adventist Community needs the wisdom of the mature Ellen White, -the one that the White Estate has been hiding all these years, it would be now, in the 21st century. The one we all grew up with came from the twisted mind of Arthur White, and does not represent the genuine views of the mature Ellen White. Everyone needs to understand that the White Estate is guilty of perpetrating a massive publishing fraud on the public. Shame on the White Estate for what they have done.

Ellen White & Tithe

While the modern SDA’s pretend that the issue of tithe, like most everything else, has long ago been settled by Ellen White’s writings, this is not true. The White Estate has presented a dishonest and inaccurate view about Ellen White and tithe, just as they have about so many other things. They have not told the full story and only promoted what they wanted people to hear and believe.

The fact of the matter is that Ellen White does not agree with the SDA leaders about tithe. She refused to follow the doctrine of tithe, which was articulated by the great legalist D. M. Canright in the 1870’s.

By the 1890’s, Ellen White found herself in Australia, sent there by the leaders to remove her from Battle Creek. Following the 1888 debates, she dramatically changed her view about both the law and the Gospel; even as she became suspicious of the direction the leaders were taking the Denomination.

During this exile, she became so fed up with the incompetence from the GC that she used her personal tithe, and that of others, to help fund the Gospel work in the Southern US. When later confronted with her actions, back in America, she refused to repent or change her view.

Here is the true story about Ellen White and Tithe. It is very different from what the leaders have been saying all these years. Proving that when it comes to tithe, the SDA’s would rather ignore Ellen White, all the while dishonestly claiming to support her.

The Watson Letter

In January 1905, Ellen White wrote a letter to Elder Watson, the conference President of Colorado about Tithe. At this time a number of independent minded SDA’s were collecting Tithe for various mission projects, thus by-passing the Denomination. The church leaders strongly objected to this practice and demanded that it stop, even as the guilty parties repaid their tithe back to the Denomination.

The problem was that Ellen White was one of those using her tithe and that from others, to support various Pastors and their mission projects. So when the leaders came down hard on those who failed to follow church doctrine, she stepped forward to not only protect those who were breaking the tithe rules, but to confess that she too had not been complying with this doctrine for years.

Moreover, she made it clear that she had no plans, or instructions from the Spirit, to ever fully support the SDA doctrine of tithe. Wow! Who knew that Ellen White was a Tithe Rebel?

The Watson letter is important because it reveals Ellen White’s true view of tithe. In fact, it shows that Ellen White refused to fully support the SDA doctrine of tithe. It also shows that others were also taking the same position

In the letter, Ellen White informed this unhappy Conference President that she used her tithe for the work of the church and that he should “keep cool” about it so that others do not follow her example. Otherwise, he would really have something to complain about.

Thus Ellen White’s own words and actions do not support what the SDA’s teach about tithe. In fact, she was “shown” that the church leaders do not have to be followed, and that special circumstances trump their rules.

Watson was furious by Ellen White’s dismissal of his authority and church doctrine, which not only cut into his budget, but also came very close to denying the Denomination’s doctrine of tithe. Ellen White’s position could obviously open a Pandora’s box if everyone decided to control his or her tithe, sending it where they wanted.

In fact, after Elder Watson read Ellen White’s defense of her actions, he could not believe she wrote it. He called it “spurious” and accused Edson White, Ellen White’s son, of being the real author.

Watson was so angry that he confronted Edson and declared that this anti-tithe letter was “a product of his own evil brain.” But both of Ellen White’s sons, Edson and WC White, strongly denied this charge. The letter was real, and so too Ellen White’s stubborn refusal to fully support the doctrine of tithe as taught by the church.

Here is this infamous letter from Ellen White:

Mountain View, Calif., Jan. 22, 1905.

Elder Watson:

My brother, I wish to say to you, Be careful how you move. You are not moving wisely. The least you have to speak about the tithe that has been appropriated to the most needy and the most discouraging field in the world, the more sensible you will be.

It had been presented to me for years that my tithe was to be appropriated by myself to aid the white and colored ministers who were neglected and did not receive sufficient properly to support their families.

When my attention was called to aged ministers, white or black, it was my special duty to investigate into their necessities and supply their needs.

This was to be my special work, and I have done this in a number of cases. No man should give notoriety to the fact that in special cases the tithe is used in that way.

In regard to the colored work in the South, that field has been and is still being robbed of the means that should come to the workers of that field. If there has been cases where our sisters have appropriated their tithe to the support of the ministers working for the colored people in the South, let every man, if he is wise, hold his peace.

I have myself appropriated my tithe to the most needy cases brought to my notice. I have been instructed to do this; and as the money is not withheld from the Lord’s treasury, it is not a matter that should be commented upon; for it will necessitate my making known these matters, which I do not desire to do, because it is not best.

Some cases have been kept before me for years, and I have supplied their needs from the tithe, as God has instructed me to do. And if any person shall say to me, Sister White, will you appropriate my tithe where you know it is most needed, I shall say, Yes, I will; and I have done so.

I commend those sisters who have placed their tithe where it is most needed to help to do a work that is being left undone; and if this matter is given publicity, it will create knowledge which would better be left as, it is.

I do not care to give publicity to this work, which the Lord has appointed me to do, and others to do.
I send this matter to you so that you shall not make a mistake. Circumstances alter cases.

I would not advise that any should make a practice of gathering up tithe money. But for years there have now and then been persons who have lost confidence in the appropriation of the tithe who have placed their tithe in my hands, and said that if I did not take it they would themselves appropriate it to the families of the most needy minister they could find. I have taken the money, given a receipt for it, and told them how it was appropriated.

I write this to you so that you shall keep cool and not become stirred up and give publicity to this matter, lest many more shall follow their example.

Signed Ellen G. White.

Spalding and Magan Collection, p. 215, 216
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/contra1.html

This is the real Ellen White that the White Estate did not want the church to know about. The mature Ellen White not only wrote this letter, but also stood behind it, refusing to back down whatsoever.

It was Ellen White’s position that because the church had failed to do its’ duty, she could use her tithe to address these failures.

More importantly, she had been “shown” by God that she could use her tithe in this independent manner, and so too could others. Thus she had no apologies to offer. Nor would she ever change her mind. The Spirit was leading her away from Tithe and she had to follow regardless.

Of course this means that Ellen White is not as pro tithing as the church has pretended all these years. In fact, it means that no one can honestly use Ellen White to defend tithe paying as the SDA church taught for generations, because she knew there was error in this doctrine. Which is why she refused to comply.

Here are some links for further study:

http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.or … gy-EGW.htm

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/Tithe-H&U.html

http://formypeople.org/the_truth/appendix_B.html

http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/contra1.htm

http://www.freesdachurches.org/our-history.html

Ellen White Refuses to Follow Tithe Doctrine

After 1888, Ellen White knew that the church held many errors about doctrine. Thus she called for honest and fair investigations of the issues. But the leaders refused over and over again. As a result, she has gone on record as not only ignoring and revising Canright’s tithe doctrine, but of saying that there are many other doctrinal errors that need to be addressed and corrected, including tithe.

"There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."

Review and Herald, Dec. 20, 1892

"Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed." Review and Herald, July 26, 1892

"Those who cannot impartially examine the evidences of a position that differs from theirs, are not fit to teach in any department of God’s cause."

Review and Herald, February 18, 1890

Lacking theological training, the SDA’s incorrectly assumed that tithing was like the Sabbath, a Moral law and religious duty that applied to the church. They also assumed it was practiced by the apostolic church. Which is why Ellen White says the following:

“The New Testament does not re-enact the law of the tithe, as, it does not that of the Sabbath; for the validity of both is assumed.” The Faith I Live By, page 244.

Of course this is wrong. Tithing is clearly part of the OC ceremonial laws, while the Sabbath is located in the center of the Moral law, and is a moral law.

Moreover, if the Sabbath has the same lack of support from the NT as it does for tithe, then there is no Sabbath for the church. Because there is absolutely no such doctrine as tithe in the NT, nor could there have ever been such an Old Covenant doctrine in the Apostolic church for a number of reasons.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239

The SDA’s were very naive to think they could invent such a doctrine like tithe without the specific authority of the apostles. But like all denominations, they looked for ways to bring in money, and thus they tried a number of models before D. M. Canright found OC tithing, which fit with their naïve thinking about the Two Covenants.

Ellen White did not understand the Gospel correctly until after the 1888 debates, and it took her less than a decade until she questioned tithe and made some dramatic changes about how she practiced this doctrine. The fact that Canright, the author of the SDA tithe doctrine, had left the church to become its’ worst critic, no doubt diminished its credibility for her, as well it should have.

However, the record is clear that the mature Ellen White practiced a variant form of tithing that the leaders did not approve or want others to copy.

By the turn of the century, the Battle Creek Adventists were entering a great crisis of schism. Some were using the Watson letter as a means to cause further defections. AT Jones, who had left the church, along with many other former leaders, widely circulated this private Ellen White letter, which gave it great publicity.

President Daniels complained to Ellen White that her anti- tithe letter was being used by many as an excuse not to support the newly relocated (Takoma Park) Denomination. So something had to be done.

In order to stop the “evil” use of the Watson letter by the denomination’s critics, WC White proposed that Ellen White write a pro tithe section for the Testimonies, -(quoted in 9T,) which says the opposite of what she said in the Watson letter. Perhaps this renewed tithe emphasis from her would smooth things out.

This agreement in turn led Watson to once again think the Ellen White letter to him was a fraud. He could hardly believe that Ellen White would repudiate tithe and refuse to comply with church doctrine. But WC White again refused such a characterization.

In spite of her public support of tithe, and her wish to see the SDA church grow and prosper, he made it clear that the Watson Letter did in fact honestly represent Ellen White’s views. So while it was confusing, it was also genuine, and the church would have to deal with it as such.

WC White admitted that while it would be easier to “repudiate a few documents that perplex us, and say they were forgeries, it is the truth that makes us free…”

WC White was an honest man, and he refused to re-classify the Watson letter. He firmly held to the position that these anti-tithe words of Ellen White could not and would not be repudiated by her. One day the church would better understand.

WC White & Ellen White, Jerry Moon, 1993, Andrews Press, pp 410-413.

http://www.tithetruth.org/authority_egw.htm

So Ellen White did not have a rigid view of tithe.
In fact, she defied the rules and used her tithe as she saw fit for years, even taking it from others to spend. And she approved of others that did the same.

Were any SDA Pastor to take this position today, they would be fired immediately.

Ellen White had a real burden for retired ministers who were in financial need because at that time the church did not have a retirement plan. So she placed their needs above the SDA doctrine of tithe, even as the Spirit led her away from this doctrine.

She wrote: "Where I see workers in this cause that have been true and loyal to the work, who are left to suffer, it is my duty to speak in their behalf. If this does not move the brethren to help them, then I must help them, even if I am obliged to use a portion of my tithe in doing so.

Quoted in W. C. White, Regarding the Use of the Tithe, Unpublished manuscript, DF 384, EGWRC-GC, ca. 1932.

Tithe Cover-Up

The leaders have been perplexed about Ellen White’s view of tithe from the moment the Watson Letter became public. Many were shocked to discover that Ellen White did not fully support tithe, and that she claimed the Spirit had been leading her away from this doctrine for years. It was as shocking to them as it is to us today.

At a General Conference committee council meeting held behind closed doors in Washington, D.C., Oct. 27, 1913, after reading these two contradictory statements, Elder Watson, holding up one in each hand, said he could not believe that both were written by the same person.
He said he had charged J.E. White, Mrs. White's oldest son, with being the author of the 1906 communication; had told him he believed it was "a product of his own evil brain."

For nearly eight long years Watson said he had been left in the dark as to whether it was a genuine testimony or not, and asserted that hundreds of thousands of dollars had been diverted from the regular channels by the use that had been made of it.

Finally, in that same meeting, Elder W.C. White, in response to what Elder Watson had said, made the following statement:

"The letter was written by my mother, and was duplicated, and a copy was sent Brother Watson, and another copy, very unwisely I believe, and I am sorry to say, to my brother. What called it out was a letter from my brother to my mother. I am very sorry that the letter was written."

http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/canright/can17.htm

Although W. C. White regretted that his brother had created this unwanted attention about tithe, he refused to pretend that the Watson letter was not genuine, or that Ellen White was not a tithe rebel. Thus the 20th century, Takoma Park, SDA’s had a real conundrum on their hands. How would they deal with Ellen White, the Tithe Rebel?

Now that Ellen White did not fully support tithe, even confessing that the Spirit had been leading her away from this doctrine for years, what would the leaders do?

Would they follow the leading of the Spirit and investigate tithe to see what the NT teaches? Or would they ignore Ellen White’s mature testimony and spin the Watson letter to support their view of tithe?

They choose the latter, and once again Ellen White’s testimony would be suppressed and ignored because the leaders did not like it. They have rejected her views on tithe to this very day, even as Arthur White tried to deny that the Watson letter proved anything.

Listen to Arthur White, the most dishonest man in modern SDA history. He is in denial that there was ever any truth or leading from the Spirit involved in the Watson letter.

“There is not one phrase or sentence in this (Watson) letter which would neutralize or countermand the clear and full instruction concerning paying tithe or its use. When all the facts are before us it can easily be seen that any such use of the letter is a misuse.”

Ellen G. White and the Tithe, by Arthur L. White; The E. G. White Letter Concerning the Tithe, P 30

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/Tithe … nd%20the%2

Today, it is impossible to support the dishonest delusions of Arthur White. Of course Ellen White refused to follow the church doctrine of tithe, the facts cannot be denied or refuted. Now that Arthur White is gone, what is the church saying about the Watson letter?

Rather then flat our deny that Ellen White was a tithe rebel, like the White Estate had been doing for years, they now claim that she is so very special that she can do things others cannot. Thus no one should take such liberties with tithe like she did. Why? Because they do not have the same gifts and status as Ellen White, nor is anyone else on her level. She has special privileges.

But of course Ellen White never said this, nor does the NT teach that there are such class distinctions, much less that there can be tithe or a hierarchy in the church. In fact, the NT teaches the opposite.

Listen to the modern SDA church claim that whatever Ellen White did with her tithe was fine, but we must never follow her example:

“It is obvious that on the occasions in which E. G. White appropriated her tithe and the tithe given to her by others, she had good reasons to do it and the support of the Lord.”

“The tithe was not being misused in any way, but was fulfilling God's intention for the sacred fund. Because of her very peculiar ministry within the church, her practice in this area cannot be used as a model by anyone to appropriate tithe for particular projects.”

“We should also keep in mind that her use of tithe to support Bible workers and retired workers have become accepted practices in the church.”

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.or … gy-EGW.htm

How ironic that while the White Estate is supposed to be the protector and defender of Ellen White’s spiritual gifts, they are blind to what Ellen White is really saying about Tithe. They see no work of the Spirit here, even though this is exactly what Ellen White is saying.

In 1911, a few years before Ellen White died, the tithe issue comes up again. Was there any change in her rebellious view? Did she repent and say that she was wrong for not following church doctrine? Did she claim that she was so special that she can do what others cannot? No.

In fact, the aged Ellen White, made it clear that this was still her position and that, “yes,” she would “accept tithe” from others “and use it in the cause of God where most needed.”

Even as she was dying, Ellen White refused to change her views about tithe that were explained in the Watson letter, 6 years earlier.

However, Ellen White was in no shape to be receiving tithe and redistributing it, much less trying to reform any doctrine. She was old, bedridden, and dying, and thus she counseled that it would be “better” to trust the conference leaders.

This practical suggestion from Ellen White has been dishonestly used by the leaders to pretend that she fully supported tithe when she did not. There was never any change in her testimony that the Spirit was leading her away from tithe, nor did she ever repudiate the Watson letter. This latest spin from the church is just another attempt to cover up the facts and promote dishonest propaganda about Ellen White.

In addition to the Watson letter, there is another document in the White Estate vault, (DF 213) which further supports Ellen White’s anti-tithe position. It is a three page typewritten manuscript that appears to be written by WC White, Danniels, and Prescott. According to the White Estate, it “seems to indicate” that tithe “need not always be transmitted through regular church channels.”

(See Ellen G White’s Counsel and Practice on Tithe, by Roger Coon. ND)

Today, there can be no doubt that Ellen White refused to follow the doctrine of tithe as the leaders taught. More than that, she made it clear that the Spirit was leading her, and others, away from this doctrine. She never changed this view.

Conservatives Embrace The Watson Letter

While the 20th century SDA’s were legendary for upholding Ellen White as an example and guide for all things, including tithe, this has changed. With the discovery of the Watson letter by a number of independent church ministries, the church leaders have had to start teaching that no one should follow Ellen White’s practice of tithe. She is not a good model when it comes to tithe.

But such instruction made no sense to those conservatives that had developed a lifestyle of imitating and embracing all things Ellen White. They were not about to change their views.

In fact, when the conservatives read the Watson letter, and researched the background, they realized that Ellen White’s practice of tithe could greatly benefit their independent ministries. Thus some started to pay their tithes to various independent groups. Listen to their view of things:

So, following her instructions, the workers in the south decided to bypass the leadership and take their needs directly to the Advent believers. They began writing letters of appeal and mailing them out. That brought in some funds, for which both they and Ellen White were thankful. In addition, in late 1904 several of them traveled as far west as Colorado. They spoke of their needs and appealed for funds. Among the donations they received was tithe money. Returning with the funds to their area, they spent them.

They were working in accordance with Spirit of Prophecy counsels, and deserved encouragement and support, which church leaders did not wish to grant them. When Elder G.F. Watson, the Colorado Conference president, heard about this, he wrote a letter to the workers and demanded that they send the tithe back.

His logic was exactly that of the NAD policy, enacted in 1992: The tithe belongs to church leadership, and no one else can spend it. However, that viewpoint is not supported either by the Bible or Spirit of Prophecy.

It is church teaching that tithe must go through the regular channel, But Ellen White declared that claim to be incorrect…
In the Colorado incident, we find an almost perfect parallel to the present situation:

(1) Workers from not partially but totally independent ministries, who were carrying on a necessary work, told the believers of their work and their needs. / Self-supporting organizations today controlled, subsidized, subservient, or totally independent are doing the same.

(2) Tithe money was, and continues to be, given to such ministries.

(3) The conference president demanded that the tithe money be returned to the church. / The North American Division demands that the tithe money be returned to the church.

(4) Ellen White told the conference president that it was perfectly alright for church members to give tithe directly to totally independent ministries, that it need not be returned, that she herself regularly did it, and that she commended others who did it. / It is not difficult to guess what her letter to the NAD would say.

http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundat … -tithe.htm

The Watson letter empowered a number of independent ministries to start following Ellen White’s example, which in turn led these ministries to be separated from Denominational support. Thus another post Glacier View schism pushed the conservatives away from the organized Adventist church, which is where things stand today.

Here are a number of links for further study:

http://formypeople.org/the_truth/contents.html

http://www.tithetruth.org/book-tithepro … troduction

http://www.tithetruth.org/authority_egw.htm

http://www.4hispeople.info/critics_Ed_Reid.html

http://www.stepstolife.org/library/rlar … roblem.htm

http://www.thenarrowwayministries.org/P … talogID=10

http://www.notaprophet.org/articles/ern … reams.html

Now that Ellen White has been exposed as a tithe rebel, she can no longer be used as an example, except for the conservatives, who have embraced her new tithe views because it benefits their situation.

However, they are missing the point. Ellen White admitted that the Spirit was leading her away from the SDA doctrine of tithe. Had Ellen White lived longer, she would have further understood that tithe is a false and dangerous doctrine that cannot be practiced in the church.

THIS is where the Spirit was leading Ellen White and this is where all that follow the Word will end up. There is no such doctrine as NT tithe, in any form or fashion. THIS is what the conservatives and all others must still understand.

Tithe Propaganda Refuted.

The SDA’s are so dishonest and confused about tithe that they have taken up some strange positions. In fact, while they often used Ellen White as an example for all manner of behavior and doctrine, including tithing, they are now having to back away from such an unhealthy and unsupportable view.

Listen to this new spin about Ellen White from the leaders. They are trying to counteract the Watson letter, as well as Ellen White’s true position on Tithe:

“3. Ellen White is not our example, Jesus is.

In fact, regarding her sending of tithe funds to the workers in the south, rather than endorsing the practice of sending the tithes to other than the conference, she said, “This was to be my special work , and I have done this in a number of cases. No man should give notoriety to the fact that in special cases the tithe is used in that way.”

In other words, this was not to be an example for the members of our church, but was, in her words, a “special case” (emphasis added). (Reading on, we learn that it was a special case of people not trusting her counsel enough to give their tithes to the conference but to also correct the misappropriation of tithes).” Steve Wohlberg

http://www.4hispeople.info/critics_wohlberg3.html

While it is comforting to see the leaders back away from the long held view that Ellen White is our example, they are only doing it to try and counteract the Watson letter. What they are really saying is that all should follow Ellen White’s earlier view of tithe, which supports the official church position. Her more mature position is being marginalized and suppressed so that all can follow her previous and outdated views.

Such double-talk is typical when it comes to Ellen White. The leaders will spin her this way and then the other as it suits their purposes. There can be little doubt that the SDA’s are not able to deal honestly with Ellen White or church history. They are such great liars and hypocrites that all should beware of believing anything they say about doctrine or church history.

First off, Ellen White was not limiting her tithe rebellion to herself. Others were doing this as well and she approved. This fact overturns their spin and proves it to be worthless and untrue.

Second, it was Ellen White’s clear testimony that the Spirit was leading her away from tithe. Which means there was something wrong with this doctrine. She never changed this view, and thus all SDA’s should be advised and warned that there is danger and error in the doctrine of tithe. This is the real meaning of the Watson letter.

Third, Jesus never paid tithe, nor was he supposed to. Those who say such things are only showing their lack of biblical knowledge. Not only did Jesus never pay tithe, neither did any Christian in the apostolic church.

The SDA’s have been caught teaching myths and making up church history for their own financial gain. This is sinful, disgusting, blasphemy.

So this pathetic, uneducated defense of tithe by the SDA apologists has failed. The doctrine of tithe is not to be practiced by the church. It is not a Gospel doctrine. There is no NT support for tithe or a hierarchy, and thus the SDA’s must repent of both.

All those that want to follow Jesus, should not pay tithe to anyone because no one in the apostolic church, including Christ when here on earth, practiced tithe.

Such theological facts mean that the SDA’s need to repent of tithe paying and re-organize. They also need to apologize posthumously to Ellen White. The Spirit was leading her in the correct direction about tithe and she must be commended for following.

Conclusion

Ellen White embraced a variant view of tithe that made the leaders angry. She refused to endorse their rigid, controlling view, and even accepted the tithe money from others for special projects.

Her actions regarding tithe, as well as her advice to investigate doctrine and follow the Word, do not support the present view, practice, or attitude of the Adventist church.

If Ellen White joined our conversation today, she would repudiate the censorship that is placed on this topic and demand that a full and complete investigation be honestly taken to understand what is truth and what is not. She would send everyone to the Word to settle the issue.

Let all understand that there is no such doctrine as tithe in the church for many irrefutable reasons, nor is the present tithe based hierarchy structure compatible with either Protestant or democratic fundamentals.

The Watson Letter is another one of these cases where the White Estate has not been honest. It’s just one more example of how the church hides half the story, so that they can promote their point of view.

Who ever heard that Ellen White drank wine? But she did and it was in the Review, and on the record, for all to see. But who knew such a simple fact? The White Estate knew, but they covered it up and promoted Ellen White as if she would never in a million years drink a drop of evil spirits.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=238

While the church today uses Ellen White ‘s writings to promote faithful tithe paying, they failed to explain that Ellen White was a “Tithe Rebel,” so disgusted with church mismanagement, that she made up her own version of tithe, one that made the administrators hot with anger. And she refused to ever repent or think she was wrong.

Ellen White was not being stubborn or contrary for no reason. Her Spiritual Gifts, the very ones that the SDA’s extol and praise, were leading her AWAY from tithe. The Spirit was convincing her there was something wrong with this doctrine.

But of course the SDA leaders don’t want to hear what the Spirit was saying to Ellen White about tithe, or anything else. In fact, their first reaction was that of disbelief, even as they pleaded with Ellen Whites son to declare the Watson letter a fraud. But it was no such thing. It was genuine proof that Ellen White does have spiritual gifts that the leaders lack.

Those that follow the same Spirit today will understand that there is something very wrong with the SDA doctrine of tithe. Ellen White was giving a warning, through the Spirit, to the SDA’s. But who is listening? Not the White Estate. The leaders are not interested in truth. They would rather have the money.

Today we know that tithe is not a valid doctrine in the church. Those today that teach the apostolic church practiced tithe are very misinformed, incompetent, and wrong. They are even great liars and fools, unable to understand the Word or the Spirit.

There was never any such doctrine as tithe in the apostolic church, much less a hierarchical organization like the SDA’s have developed. Which is why there is not one verse in the NT showing any Christian paying tithe or receiving tithe, or storing tithe. There was no such doctrine. Period.

Tithe is a false doctrine that can no longer be tolerated. Tithe is a great lie that has brought BILLIONS OF $$$ into the SDA church. But instead of making them rich in the Gospel, it has made them wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Now we can see why the Spirit was leading Ellen White away from tithe. The same Spirit today is now calling for the complete repudiation of this Old Covenant doctrine, as well as the hierarchical model that is spawns. (Which of course explains why the leaders don’t want to hear what the Word or the Spirit is saying.)

If only the White Estate had told the truth about Ellen White, we could have seen the mature progression of her views about tithe and many other doctrines. But the SDA leaders betrayed Ellen White and the Advent Movement. They have been caught deceiving the people about church history and doctrine, and it has to stop.

It is a great sin for the church to embrace Tithing, or the resultant hierarchical system that is creates. Many have been misled by their leaders into thinking that Tithe is a sacred, biblical, duty owed God when it is nothing more than false, dishonest, and self-serving doctrine that must be repudiated and condemned.

I hope this helps those that are searching for Gospel truth.

Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 03-20-11 2:24 pm

Instead. send all contributions to TomNorris.org if you believe his position on tithe, eh????

tom_norris · 03-21-11 2:10 pm

Bob, you missed the point of this story about the Watson letter.

Many SDA’s also have a hard time understanding Ellen White. This is not because she is a conundrum, but because the White Estate is a propaganda factory. After so many years of suppression and double-talk about Ellen White, they have confused everyone, including themselves.

Here are the primary points:

1. The Spirit has repudiated the SDA doctrine of tithe, even as the NT has done the same thing.

2. The Spirit, through Ellen White, was leading the Advent Community AWAY from the doctrine of tithe and AWAY from a hierarchical church structure. When the leaders tried to change her mind, she refused.

Good for Ellen White!

She has been honest with her gifts, but not the White Estate. They are great liars and deceivers, and they are not going to get away with this massive fraud about Ellen White. They have misrepresented Ellen White to the world on a scale that is shocking to behold. Their fraud will not stand, and neither will the false doctrine of tithe.

Tithe is False Doctrine

Tithe is against the Gospel and against the NC, and so too is the present SDA organizational model. This is the bottom line that all must understand.

Those who want to follow the Spirit and the Word must repudiate tithe, as well as any type of hierarchical structure. Which means the Advent Movement needs to be re-organized, without the doctrine of tithe or a hierarchy.

Which explains why the leaders run from Adventist Reform holding their hands to their ears. Not only can they not refute Dr. Ford or Tom Norris, they don’t want to admit any errors, much less give up their power or benefits in the Adventist Community. They are fully corrupt for all to see, enemies of the Gospel and the Word, as well as the Advent Movement.

Today, the SDA leaders are committed to defend the status quo, refusing to tell the truth and repent. The Jews played this same game, for the same reason. They too rejected the Gospel in order to try and save their religious positions and remain in religious control of the people. (But it did not work as they lost everything, including the Temple, the Priesthood, and their Nation.)

John 11:46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.

John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.

John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

John 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,

John 11:50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.”

The 1st century Jews embraced the status quo instead of the Gospel, and so too the 21st century SDA’s. What a great mistake!

Mike said: I wish to express my heartfelt thanks & gratitude to Tom Norris as he had given an extremely detailed & informative reply to my question.

Tom said: You are welcome. The Adventist Community needs to hear the truth about Ellen White and Gospel doctrine. For far too long they have been indoctrinated to believe many false and wrong things and it is time for the propaganda and lies to stop, replaced by truth telling.

Here is Mike’s question from All Experts.Com:

Recently Tom Norris wrote: "Although the SDA’s strongly and loudly teach that tithing is a NT doctrine, they are great liars and fools. They like this false doctrine because it has made them rich. (They are worth about $30 BILLION)."

Mike asked: Please furnish facts, figures & links to prove your accusation.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uption.htm

Tom said: Few people know that Ellen White did not support tithe, much less that Jesus never paid tithe. No one practiced tithe in the apostolic church. NO ONE.

Many are stunned to hear such irrefutable facts. But how could their religious leaders be so wrong, they ask? Just look at the Jews and learn the answer. The NT teaches that religious leaders are wrong far more than they are correct, which is why Jesus denounced all the leaders of his day. They were all wrong, and so it is today.

The myths and errors about tithe are legion in the Laodicean Church, and the SDA’s are the worst. They have built a $30 billion Empire on the false doctrine of tithe and now they don’t want to admit their error that has made them rich.

So they suppress Ellen White’s true views, even as they twist the scriptures to make it appear as if tithe is supported in the NT when it is not. Such outrageous dishonesty and blasphemy will not go unpunished, either in this life or the one to come.

Today, there is not one organized church that teaches the Gospel or the Sabbath correctly. This is the real problem that must be addressed and resolved by those that choose to follow the Spirit and the Word.

Tithe is not a NC doctrine, any more than ritual circumcision or Temple sacrifices. Anyone today that practices tithe is advertising to all that they do not understand the Gospel, nor are they following Jesus. They are repudiating the Word and the Spirit, walking in darkness.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 03-05-12 11:04 am

DID THE APOSTLES COLLECT TITHES?

Did the early church make a practice of collecting tithes? Or did the law of of tithing only apply to ancient Israel and has no validity for Christians today?

Did the apostles collect tithes from the early church as some believe and teach today? Or is this belief and teaching in error?

Let me put your mind at ease. This broadcast is not a plea for money. If you are a tithe payer and have wondered why some people do not practice tithing. The information contained in this broad cast will help you to clearly understand whether the teaching of tithing as practiced by the majority of the professing Christian community today is Fact, Fiction, or Fraud.

This information will make some people angry and some people happy, depending on whether you are a receiver or a giver of tithes and your willingness to believe what the Bible actually says and not what you have been told it says.

http://www.bibleresearch.org/broadcasts … Tithes.pdf

tom_norris · 05-02-12 11:25 am

The SDA’s & Tithe

The SDA doctrine of tithe is based on a serious misunderstanding about the Gospel, specifically about how the Two Covenants operate. It is also based on greed and the love of money, control, and power.

Luke 16:13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.

Luke 16:15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

1Tim. 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

There was no such doctrine as tithe in the apostolic church. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever taught it, nor was it practiced in the early church.

Which means that it can never be true NC doctrine, much less the will of God as the SDA’s teach. Thus tithe in the church is blasphemy. It is false doctrine that is calculated to leave the local church under the power and control of others. This is very wrong. There was no such hierarchal organization in the apostolic church. That developed later; it was called the RCC. They did not develop a Gospel based organization and neither have the SDA’s. They follow Rome in this regard.

Tithe in the church is so wrong and Old Covenant, that one wonders why the SDA’s are so obsessed with it. But it is easy to see why. The SDA’s have embraced an OC view of Christian religion. Which is to say they are Judaizers and Pharisees. They do not understand the Gospel correctly, nor do they want to organize the church in a proper NC manner.

The SDA Pastors operate as if they were a separate Priesthood, - paid by the tithe, - as if they were Levites. The Adventists even claim they are the “storehouse” for these “sacred” funds, like the OC Temple in Jerusalem. But there is no truth to these absurd, self-serving myths that are designed to keep their members under the power and control of their incompetent leaders.

Moreover, every Sabbath, without fail, the SDA’s practice their tithe ritual. It starts out with praise for this OC doctrine, followed by promises of blessing from Mal 3 for those who follow God’s will by paying tithe.

Mal. 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, ‘How have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings.

Mal. 3:9 “You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!

Mal. 3:10 “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the LORD of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Then there is the call for the tithe and offering, followed by a prayer to further motivate the people to give money to the church. Collection plates are passed so that the tithe can be gathered in their specially printed envelopes, which are stored in the pews.

The SDA’s are following the OC laws of Moses instead of the NC teachings of Christ. Like the Pharisees, they are repudiating the Priesthood of all believers, which is the basis for the NC Sabbath of Christ, which they also misunderstand. They have misunderstood how Christ teaches the church must be organized.

Mark 10:42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them.

Mark 10:43 “But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;

Mark 10:44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.

Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The SDA’s, like the Jews they so closely emulate, are so OC minded that in addition to tithe, they also embrace the OC view of the Sabbath, which is the same view as the enemies of Christ. (It is a miracle that they did not embrace ritual circumcision, but then again, not even the RCC followed this OC ritual.)

Just as the Temple and Tithe based religion of the 1st century Jews had become a major source of cash flow and wealth, so too the SDA denomination. Every year the Adventists bring in two $$ BILLION dollars, all based on the twin errors of OC tithe and the Sabbath of Moses. (Which is a small amount when compared to many others. But it is never enough for the greedy.)

Here is a Review article where the SDA’s dream of becoming even more wealthy through the use of their false and dishonest theology. Rather than try and figure out why there are so many dissatisfied church members, they prefer to promote false doctrine in their unapologetic quest to build an Empire. Very sad.

------------------------------------------------

Is the World Church Missing Out
on $12 Billion in Tithe?

Global Tithing Index report suggests unrealized potential (Posted April 26, 2012)

BY ANSEL OLIVER, Adventist News Network

How much money would the Seventh-day Adventist Church have for mission each year if world membership records were accurate and each member returned a faithful tithe?

About US$14 billion.

The denomination currently receives a little more than $2 billion annually.

That’s according to this year’s edition of the global tithing index (GTI), which is a report measuring 2010 statistics of tithing faithfulness per capita across countries.

Claude Richli, associate publisher  of Adventist Review and Adventist World magazines, publishes the GTI as a  personal venture. Though not an official publication of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the annual ranking can help administrators compare countries in similar regions and uncover trends.

This year’s GTI introduced a new measurement called the total tithe potential, which shows the total tithe that should theoretically be received in a country if all Adventist Church members were faithful in tithing 10 percent of their income.

The total tithe potential for 2010 was about $14.1 billion. That same year, the Adventist Church received about $2 billion in tithe.

www.adventistreview.org/article/5299/archives/issue-2012-1512/12-cn-is-the-world-church-missing-out-on-12-billion-in-tithe

http://www.aiias.edu/gti/reports.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While the SDA’s obviously lust after more money, dreaming of how they could misuse more tithe, it is obvious that their focus is not on the Gospel, or saving lost souls. No. They are focused on how much money they can get from people.

THIS is the great “potential” that drives them forward. Money, money, and more money. The SDA’s can’t get enough. They are addicted to money. They have no problem teaching that God wants people to give them money. And that it is their duty and obligation to do so. Such is their great blasphemy.

Those who follow the Gospel teachings of Christ will not be fooled into practicing the OC doctrine of tithe, nor will they pretend that any pastor is like a Levite. To pay tithe is to support a false Gospel, and repudiate the Priesthood of All Believers.

The very fact that the SDA’s are so unaware of this theological fact underscores how little they know about NC doctrine. They do not understand the Gospel correctly, and this is why so many keep leaving…

Tithe is a very dangerous doctrine for the church. It empowers the few to rule the many, - even as it creates a hierarchical paradigm whereby the Gospel is subordinated to the whims a few old men who have clawed their way to the top of the hierarchy. Tithe breeds an arrogant, lazy, and corrupt ministry that lives to serve itself and abuse all others that get in its way.

The Gospel cannot exist in such an evil environment, as Jesus clearly teaches. This is why Dr. Ford had to be exiled. His Gospel views were the opposite of what the OC minded leaders teach.

Luke 5:37 “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

The Gospel cannot survive in an OC environment of legalism and false doctrine. The Gospel must maintain a proper organizational system, which cannot be hierarchical or tithe based.

Unless the SDA’s repent of their OC system of church governance, they will never be able to understand, much less represent, the genuine Gospel of Christ.

The false doctrine of tithe condemns the SDA’s and proves they are not following the NC.

It also proves that they have repudiated Ellen White who refused to fully embrace this doctrine, even as she testified that the Spirit was leading her away from this teaching. Few know this fact.

So when are the SDA’s going to repent? From the sound of this article, it looks like never. They love false doctrine. Especially the doctrine of tithe. Sad.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bshields · 05-03-12 10:14 am

Hi Tom, your post is well written and this is one I can agree with with all my heart. SDA hierarchy do not believe their flock will give because of their love for the Gospel and they do not trust them.

Tithing was never giving out of love, it was an obligation. Tithing was never about giving money, it was always paid in livestock or crops. The merchant, sandelmaker, tentmaker, etc did not ever pay a tithe. That didn't make any difference to ellen and her gang, they needed money and making all the flock cough up 10% of anything they accumulated was their game. It was/is a systematic scheme, an outright lie. That, in its self, is enough to tell me the SDA church is false along with its prophet.

l_miller · 05-03-12 12:08 pm

“Looking out the window is the most important thing if you want to know what's going on.”

l_miller · 05-03-12 12:09 pm

Listen what tom said on 04-15-12 11:56 am # 138 Did you know that at the end of Ellen White’s life, she refused to embrace the doctrine of tithe as taught by the church? And did you know that when the leaders confronted her, she refused to comply because she said the Spirit had been leading her AWAY from this doctrine. Of course the church hid this information and have ever since claimed that Ellen White fully support the doctrine of tithe when SHE DID NOT.

Now you get an idea of what has been going on. If the leaders did not like what Ellen White did or said, they would just hide it, and use another quote from her, out of context, that fit what they wanted her to say. Thus the White Estate became a propaganda factory, not an honest champion for Ellen White’s real views.

l_miller · 05-03-12 3:54 pm

This quote is taken from Adventist Reform - Tom Norris » Ellen White.....#138 (page 6)

bshields · 05-03-12 6:24 pm

l_miller wrote:

Listen what tom said on 04-15-12 11:56 am # 138 Did you know that at the end of Ellen White’s life, she refused to embrace the doctrine of tithe as taught by the church?

Yes, I have read where she took her tithe money and supported her own, what she deemed as meaningful, causes. She broke the rule she helped frame and she got from "I saw", her angel. Strange don't you think?

I Miller wrote:

And did you know that when the leaders confronted her, she refused to comply because she said the Spirit had been leading her AWAY from this doctrine. Of course the church hid this information and have ever since claimed that Ellen White fully support the doctrine of tithe when SHE DID NOT.

Yep, I know, She was quick to confront others when they went against the SOP, but sure didn't take their telling her to heart. She never said that tithing was wrong and encouraged the flock to continue tithing to the GC. I think you are trying to tell us that ellen was anti tithing in her old age. I need for you to supply the book and page where she said tithing was wrong.

I Miller wrote:

Now you get an idea of what has been going on.

No, show me, I need more than your words, I need proof from ellen's own writings.

I

I Miller wrote:

f the leaders did not like what Ellen White did or said, they would just hide it, and use another quote from her, out of context, that fit what they wanted her to say. Thus the White Estate became a propaganda factory, not an honest champion for Ellen White’s real views.

The brethren didn't have to quote ellen out of context. She spoke out of both sides of her mouth. She evidently didn't have a very good memory. She would say something one time and when on the same subject at another time would say something other than t her first statement thus incriminating herself, but giving the brethren a choice of what to believe and teach.

tom_norris · 05-05-12 10:58 am

Bsheilds said: Hi Tom, your post is well written and this is one I can agree with all my heart.

Tom said: Glad to see such a hearty endorsement. However, I am not sure that we really agree on all points.

Bsheilds said: SDA hierarchy does not believe their flock will give because of their love for the Gospel and they do not trust them.

Tom said: One must be careful to distinguish between the 19th century Adventists and the modern SDA denomination. For example, there was no such doctrine as tithe in either the 1st or 2nd Angels Messages.

Moreover, when the 3rd Angels Message was developed in 1847 by the SDA’s, there was still no such doctrine as tithe. Nor did one exist, in any form, until about 1860, and it was not really like the final doctrine, (which we know today), that was developed in 1878 by D. M. Canright, who was tasked by James White to find a better way to finance the ministry.

The History and Use of the Tithe
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/Tithe-H&U.html

Highlights of the Beginning of the Tithing System
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/Tithe … Highlights

Tithe was NEVER a fundamental pillar in the Three Angels Messages. It was naively and innocently developed by the pre 1888 Battle Creek SDA’s for practical reasons. They didn’t really know any better, because at this point, they did not understand the NC very well.

So they were not trying to deceive or mislead. Rather, they were trying to follow what they thought the Bible taught on this point.

However, because tithe worked so well, the modern SDA’s declared it to be a “sacred” and fundamental doctrine, when it was no such thing. This false doctrine soon became off limits for discussion or study, and so it is today.

The early 20th century SDA’s knew very little about the NC, even as they were very OC minded. In their legalism and ignorance, they made a fundamental doctrine out of something that was never a doctrine in the apostolic or Protestant church.

What was never a “pillar” of Adventism in the 19th century, soon became one in the 20th century. This is how doctrinal creep takes place. This is how myth becomes doctrine in the church. Every denomination is guilty of doing this, which is why there is so much false doctrine in every church. This is how Sunday became the Lord’s Day.

Guidelines on the Use of Tithe
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/guidel … uide4.html

While tithe made sense to the early SDA’s, - because they were uneducated literalists, confused about the Two Covenants, we have no such excuse today. We know much more about the NT and church history. Tithe is not a NC doctrine, nor did Jesus or the apostolic church approve or OC practice.

Ellen White & Tithe

Here are some facts to keep in mind about Ellen White and tithe.

1. The source of the tithe doctrine was not Ellen White. So the critics need to stop pretending otherwise.

2. Ellen White did not follow the SDA doctrine of tithe. And she refused to repent or conform when asked to do so by the leaders.

3. Ellen White declared that the Spirit was leading her AWAY from tithe. She never changed this view.

The real Ellen White was a tithe rebel. Had the White Estate not been such a corrupt enterprise, all would have known this fact. But now we know.

So stop bashing Ellen White. She stood up against tithe, and warned the leaders it was wrong.

Let’s give her some credit for not only being correct, but for being courageous. She was not exiled from Battle Creek for no reason, nor did the White Estate hide her writings as a prank. No. The SDA leaders do not like, nor appreciate, many of Ellen White’s views, so they hid many of her best writings, pretending she agreed with them we she did not. Tithe is a good example.

Bsheilds said: The brethren didn't have to quote ellen out of context. She spoke out of both sides of her mouth.

Tom said: This is how it appeared to many in the 20th century, especially during the debates about Righteousness by Faith. The TSDA’s would quote something very legalistic from Ellen White, but then the Progressives would come back with a pro-Gospel statement that opposed it.

This is what happens when you hide documents and cover up history. The reason there were opposing statements is because Ellen White changed her views about the law and the Gospel after 1888, but the church covered it up and denied this fact.

Ellen White’s post 1888 views are different from her pre 1888 views. The White Estate knew this, and decided to promote her pre 1888 views, and suppress her post 1888 positions. So she is not double-talking but maturing and changing her views about the Gospel. Had the White Estate told the truth about 1888, all would have understood this fact.

Bsheilds said: She evidently didn't have a very good memory. She would say something one time and when on the same subject at another time would say something other than her first statement thus incriminating herself, but giving the brethren a choice of what to believe and teach.

Tom said: No. No. No. This is not what was going in real life in Battle Creek. Had the White Estate told the truth about 1888, all would have seen her make the transition that explains why her views changed. But they hid thousands of documents and pretended that she made no changes, when they knew this was false. When these changed views leaked out, it became evident that something was wrong. But yet, the White Estate CONTINUED to hide thousands of documents, even as they determined to go forward with their fraud about Ellen White. They were content to let everyone think Ellen White was a double-talker when this was not true whatsoever.

The White Estate has caused all this confusion about Ellen White. They have no excuse for what they have done and it is time for the record to be corrected and truth told to the Adventist Community.

The real Ellen White was a Gospel Reformer, which is the worst thing one can be in the Jewish, err, I mean…, SDA community. And Ellen White is still paying the price for Gospel Reform.

It is time for the real Ellen White to become known to those who care about truth. Shame on the White Estate for their great fraud and deception. They are the problem, not Ellen White.

Bsheilds said: Tithing was never giving out of love, it was an obligation.

Tom said: Tithing was part of the Law of Moses. It supported the OC Priesthood and the Temple. It was developed by the will of God, not man.

Moreover, it is not fair to say that none of the Israelites gave tithe out of love for God. No doubt many of them did, just like some do today. So we need to be careful not to project our modern debates back into ancient Judaism.

In fact, when explain to long time SDA’s the evils of tithe, some are very offended. Why? Because they do give their tithe out of love for Jesus, and thus they cannot understand why it is wrong. They fail to understand they have been brainwashed by false teachers, even as they think they are doing the will of God.

For many tithe payers today, this doctrine does represent their expression of loyalty and faithfulness to God and the Gospel. But good motives do not determine correct doctrine. False doctrine is false for reasons beyond of our personal feelings or brainwashed point of view.

All those who sincerely pay tithe, thinking it is the will of God, had better study the matter and repent. They need to understand the difference between the law and the Gospel, realizing that others who were also wrong have misled them.

The Sabbath is another example of Christians sincerely embracing error and myth. Both the Sunday keepers and the SDA zealots are sincere in their Sabbath views, but so what? They are both wrong.

Sincerity is beside the point. Wrong is wrong. False doctrine cannot be made into truth by sincerity or faith. If so, then the Jews had an excuse to kill Christ. They sincerely believed Jesus to be an evil man, a lawbreaker; and that God wanted them to punish this great blasphemer. But they were wrong, and paid a great price.

Bsheilds said: Tithing was never about giving money; it was always paid in livestock or crops. The merchant, sandelmaker, tentmaker, etc did not ever pay a tithe.

Tom said: Correct. The SDA’s have embellished OC Tithe far beyond its historical meaning and practice. Jesus never paid tithe and neither did his apostles, much less the early church.

But yet, the modern SDA’s teach otherwise. And they have no interest in researching the matter or making any corrections. They love the money, so truth is beside the point.

So the SDA’s run from any discussion about tithe, as this topic is on their forbidden list. As we all found out on the AToday Forum. That was the main reason why that site was shut down, and the leaders would shut down this thread and this forum if they could.

Anyone that pays tithe today, has misunderstood the Gospel. And the SDA's are the worst of all. They obsess over this doctrine, which they claim is "sacred truth." But in reality, they are self-condmend for all to see.

Anyone that thinks Jesus paid tithe, is following a false Christ, and a worthless Gospel.

This is yet one more error that the SDA’s must repudiate and repent. The entire Adventist Community, the few that still do, should stop paying tithe. This would send the correct signal to their greedy leaders that this scam is over and that it is time for the Advent Movement to repent and embrace Gospel Reform.

Bsheilds said: That didn't make any difference to ellen and her gang, they needed money and making all the flock cough up 10% of anything they accumulated was their game.

Tom said: You don’t seem to understand. Ellen White is not the author of tithe in the SDA church. A doctrine that was only developed 10 years BEFORE 1888 and a doctrine that she refused to fully embrace.

Understand that tithe as we know it, was developed in 1878. By 1898, 20 years later, the church was ready to self-destruct, as the great Battle Creek schism led many to repudiate SDA doctrine, including tithe and the Sabbath.

Moreover, all during the 1890’s and beyond, Ellen White refused to follow this late developing doctrine, and she never changed her mind on this point.

In fact, the church has been covering up her true position on tithe, which is that the Spirit was leading her AWAY from this doctrine. But the leaders did not want to hear such testimony, so they ignored it, suppressed it, and promoted tithe as if it had the full and unquestioned approval from Ellen White when they knew this was NOT TRUE.

The fact that few know this history is beside the point. We have documented these facts on this site for all to see. The real Ellen White was a tithe rebel.

Stop blaming her for views she does not hold.

Blame Arthur White for not telling the truth about Ellen White. He is the real problem, and so too the corrupt General Conference that owns and controls the White Estate.

It’s time for the critics to stop attacking Arthur White’s manipulated version of Ellen White and get busy understanding the real Ellen White of history. Ellen White is not the problem. Let all demand that the White Estate confess what they have done and correct the record. They are the problem.

In fact, it is Ellen White was said that SDA’s have much to unlearn and learn, and that there is much more truth for Adventists to understand. She is correct.

The modern SDA’s need to unlearn what they have been taught about tithe, (and many other things), even as they learn how to properly organize the church according to the NC.

If Ellen White were online- she would agree!

Bsheilds said: It (tithe) was/is a systematic scheme, an outright lie. That, in its self, is enough to tell me the SDA church is false along with its prophet.

Tom said: Slow down.

First, when the Battle Creek SDA’s finally developed the tithe doctrine we know today, in 1878, they were not being dishonest, - just uneducated. There is a great difference. (They started working on a tithing doctrine in the late 1850’s).

Second, I agree that Tithing in the church today is an “outright lie.” More than that, it proves that the Gospel is so misunderstood as to be worthless.

To pay tithe is the equivalent of promoting ritual circumcision in the church. Thus the SDA’s are guilty of making the same mistakes as Peter and James in the book of Galatians. No wonder the SDA’s hate the book of Galatians? No wonder they had such a large fight in 1888 over Galatians?

Third: Ellen White did not invent the doctrine of tithe for the SDA’s. Rather, she was a Tithe Rebel that refused to follow this doctrine, even as she claimed the Spirit was leading her AWAY from it.

Those critics today, who stand up and condemn the SDA tithe doctrine, have the SUPPORT of Ellen White. While most have no idea that such a point could be true, - it is.

Let all think about this surprising fact, which proves how dishonest and corrupt the SDA hierarchy has been acting for generations. The White Estate has never told the full truth about Ellen White or her beliefs. And now many are understanding that tithe in the church is an impossible and dangerous teaching.

Adventist Truth About Tithing
http://www.nonsda.org/study3.shtml

Tithe Test
http://www.truthorfables.com/Tithe_Test.htm

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 15420.html

I repeat, all those who condemn the SDA’s for their false doctrine of tithe, including Tom Norris, are in harmony with the real Ellen White, as well as with her spirit of Gospel Reform.

While it is true that Ellen White, like most others in the 19th century, was very legalistic, she matured and changed her views about the law and the Gospel. After 1888 she repudiated legalism, but Uriah Smith did not. And neither did the SDA church. Once in Takoma Park, the leaders embraced Uriah Smith’s views as if there were without error, and as if Ellen White supported them. But this was a deception.

In fact, the Denomination has never repented for their gross legalism in either the 19th or 20th centuries. Nor will they do so today. So be it. They are just like the Jews, who also refused to listen to their prophets when they were alive, treating them shamefully. After they died, the leaders pretended to embrace them, but it was all for show. It was all a lie.

Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

Matt. 23:30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’

Matt. 23:31 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

Matt. 23:32 “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

After Ellen White died, the Takoma Park apologists embraced Smith’s views and suppressed Ellen Whites. Thus the White Estate is guilty of deceiving everyone about Ellen White, church history, and doctrine. And now they have been caught for all to see. Tithe is only one of many false SDA doctrines. Even their view of the Sabbath is wrong!

The real Ellen White would not support the fraud in the White Estate. Nor does she support what the church teaches about 1888, much what took place at Glacier View.

Ellen White does not support Traditional Adventism, much less tithe or this myth that the IJ is a pillar in the 1st Angels Message.

The real Ellen White condemns the present state of corruption and incompetence that has overwhelmed the Advent Movement with so much false doctrine and division. This situation is unnecessary and shameful.

Regardless of how Ellen White views of this matter, when the Gospel is correctly understood, it will become obvious and clear that tithe is a very false doctrine in the church.

Any that follow this OC doctrine have fallen from grace. They have embraced Galatianism, making the same mistakes as some in the early church. Sad.

It is time for all OC minded SDA’s to repent of tithe and move forward into the light of the Gospel. Many have already thrown away this false doctrine, but more need to follow the NT in this matter.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bshields · 05-05-12 3:34 pm

Tom wrote:

Tithe was NEVER a fundamental pillar in the Three Angels Messages. It was naively and innocently developed by the pre 1888 Battle Creek SDA’s for practical reasons. They didn’t really know any better, because at this point, they did not understand the NC very well.

Hold the phone on the innocence and naiveness of the developed modified false tithing system. If you truly believe ellen was a real prophet then what she said in the quotes below make it clear that it was God's plan. They had His blessing in developing the tithing system. Why are you covering up for SDA false doctrine and their false prophet? Time and time again you have told innocent people that ellen was not involved in the tithe scheme and that she didn't endorse it. Why do you cover up for ellen? What is your purpose?

SDAs and you still don't understand the New Covenant.

"Systematic Benevolence"
Ellen G. White early linked the tithe with "Systematic Benevolence." First she assured the church in June 1859: "The plan of systematic benevolence is pleasing to God" (1T 190). And then in January, 1861, in an article entitled "Systematic Benevolence," she wrote: "Rob not God by withholding from Him your tithes and offerings." The article closed with Malachi 3:8-11 quoted in full (1T 221, 222).

There were many references to systematic benevolence and the tithe through the late 1860s and the 1870s. Ellen White, in Testimony No. 24, written in 1874 and published in January 1875, devotes 28 pages to "Tithes and Offerings," followed by five pages under the title of "Systematic Benevolence." (3T 381-413.)

In 1876 the conviction came to leading brethren that there were defects in the plan, especially in the basis on which the tithe was reckoned. The following comes from a special session of the General Conference held early that year:
"Remarks were then made by Brother Canright on the subject of systematic benevolence. Taking certain well-ascer-tained facts as a basis, he showed that if all would come up to the Bible plan of S.B., the amount within our ranks would reach the sum of $150,000 yearly, instead of about $40,000 as it now is. The Lord says, 'Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse,' and until this is done, the Lord will not be 'proved,' to see whether He will not pour out a blessing so that there shall not be room enough to receive it. Brother White followed with lengthy and stirring remarks on the same subject.

"Brother Canright offered the following resolutions on the subject of systematic benevolence, which were unanimously adopted by the conference and congregation:

"Resolved, That we believe it to be the duty of all our brethren and sisters, whether connected with churches or living alone, under ordinary circumstances, to devote one-tenth of all their income from whatever source, to the cause of God. And further

"Resolved, That we call the attention of all our ministers to their duty in this important matter to set it plainly and faithfully before all their brethren and urge them to come up to the requirements of the Lord in this thing.

"Moved and carried that the chairman appoint a committee of three, himself to be one of that committee, to prepare a tract upon the subject of systematic benevolence. The Chair appointed D. M. Canright and U. Smith to act with him as that committee."--Minutes of the Special Session of the General Conference, published in RH April 6, 1876, p. 108.
By the year 1878 a change had been made in the plan of figuring the percentage of giving or tithe, shifting from approximately one percent per year to the total valuation of property to ten percent of the actual income. The former plan was found to be defective. In one case on the old plan the tithe amounted to $10 per month, while under the new plan of an actual ten percent of income, the tithe amounted to $36 per month.

Late in 1879 Ellen White penned the article on "Sacredness of Vows" now in Testimonies, vol. 4, pp. 462-476. In this she makes several references to "tithes and liberal offerings" as a means of supporting various facets of the work of the church.

1. Institutions
"Selfishness and fraud are practiced daily in the church, in withholding from God that which He claims, thus robbing Him and conflicting with His arrangements to diffuse the light and knowledge of truth throughout the length and breadth of the land.
"God in His wise plans has made the advancement of His cause dependent upon the personal efforts of His people and upon their freewill offerings. By accepting the cooperation of man in the great plan of redemption, He has placed a signal honor upon him. The minister cannot preach except he be sent. The work of dispensing light does not rest upon ministers alone. Every person, upon becoming a member of the church, pledges himself to be a representative of Christ by living out the truth he professes. The followers of Christ should carry forward the work which He left for them to do when He ascended into heaven.
"Institutions that are God's instruments to carry forward His work on the earth must be sustained. Churches must be erected, schools established, and publishing houses furnished with facilities for doing a great work in the publication of the truth to be sent to all parts of the world. These institutions are ordained of God and should be sustained by tithes and liberal offerings. As the work enlarges, means will be needed to carry it forward in all its branches. Those who have been converted to the truth and been made partakers of His grace may become co-workers with Christ by making voluntary sacrifices and freewill offerings to Him. And when the members of the church wish in their hearts that there would be no more calls for means, they virtually say that they are content that the cause of God shall not progress."-4T 464.

"The plan of systematic benevolence was of God's own arrangement, but the faithful payment of God's claims is often refused or postponed as though solemn promises were of no significance. It is because church members neglect to pay their tithes and meet their pledges that our institutions are not free from embarrassment. If all, both rich and poor, would bring their tithes into the storehouse, there would be a sufficient supply of means to release the cause from financial embarrassment and to nobly carry forward the missionary work in its various departments. God calls upon those who believe the truth to render to Him the things that are His."--4T 475, 476.

Last edited by bshields (05-05-12 3:36 pm)

bshields · 05-05-12 3:47 pm

Tom wrote:

Third: Ellen White did not invent the doctrine of tithe for the SDA’s. Rather, she was a Tithe Rebel that refused to follow this doctrine, even as she claimed the Spirit was leading her AWAY from it.
Those critics today, who stand up and condemn the SDA tithe doctrine, have the SUPPORT of Ellen White. While most have no idea that such a point could be true, - it is.
Let all think about this surprising fact, which proves how dishonest and corrupt the SDA hierarchy has been acting for generations. The White Estate has never told the full truth about Ellen White or her beliefs. And now many are understanding that tithe in the church is an impossible and dangerous teaching.

ellen may not have invented it, but she supported it all her life. The only thing she rebelled at was where her tithes should go. She wanted it to be a secret that she was not sending her tithes to the GC, but was using them for her self interest. She wanted everyone else to send their tithes to the GC and she even wrote extensively about doing so. Go to www.whiteestate.org and type in tithe. She said enough about tithing to keep you busy for hours and none of what she wrote was rebelling against it. You, Tom are, promoting a falsehood when you tell us ellen was a tithing rebel.

Last edited by bshields (05-05-12 3:49 pm)

l_miller · 05-05-12 8:45 pm

Bshields, you have left the sda, so did I. I don't trust the tsda and neither do you. The white Estate is a a propaganda factory. I believe we can do better not to fall in that ditch again. Tom can post the testimony of one former SDA after another; all saying that Ellen White is the main reason why they left......( Which is why the White Estate is so responsible for the modern meltdown of the SDA's). see Re: Adventist Reform- Tom Norris> Ellen White> 04-07-12 10:50 am # 16

bshields · 05-05-12 9:28 pm

Tom wrote:

So stop bashing Ellen White. She stood up against tithe, and warned the leaders it was wrong.

Okay Tom it is time for you to quote the prophet on how wrong tithing was. I have not been able to find her saying that tithing was wrong.

Read what she had to say in 1906. Sure doesn't sound like she was at war with the system. Why would you try to make her out as one of us on the issue when this is the stuff she wrote?

The directions given by the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul in regard to gifts, present a principle that applies also to tithing: “On the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him.” Parents and children are here included. Not only the rich, but the poor, are addressed. “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart [through the candid consideration of God’s prescribed plan], so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver.” The gifts are to be made in consideration of the great goodness of God to us. {SW October 2, 1906, par. 8}
And what more appropriate time could be chosen for setting aside the tithe and presenting our offerings to God? On the Sabbath we have thought upon his goodness. We have beheld his work in creation as an evidence of his power in redemption. Our hearts are filled with thankfulness for his great love. And now, before the toil of a week begins, we return to him his own, and with it an offering to testify our gratitude. Thus our practice will be a weekly sermon, declaring that God is the possessor of all our property, and that he has made us stewards to use it to his glory. Every acknowledgment of our obligation to God will strengthen the sense of obligation. Gratitude deepens as we give it expression, and the joy it brings is life to soul and body. {SW October 2, 1906, par. 9}
The duty and privilege of systematic giving to the cause of God is a matter that should by no means be neglected by ministers. God has called them to watch for souls as they that must give an account. He has commissioned them to bear his message to the churches. They should see that none are left in ignorance concerning this subject. They should seek to impress the people with a sense of their entire dependence upon God, and their accountability to him for all his benefits. {SW October 2, 1906, par. 10}

bshields · 05-05-12 9:43 pm

l_miller wrote:

Bshields, you have left the sda, so did I. I don't trust the tsda and neither do you. The white Estate is a a propaganda factory. I believe we can do better not to fall in that ditch again. Tom can post the testimony of one former SDA after another; all saying that Ellen White is the main reason why they left......( Which is why the White Estate is so responsible for the modern meltdown of the SDA's). see Re: Adventist Reform- Tom Norris> Ellen White> 04-07-12 10:50 am # 16

Thanks for revealing where you stand. It is such a joy to be free from the clutches of Adventism. To know that we have salvation is beyond anything else. Adventism failed us.

Tom has some very good points concerning Adventism. I don't buy into anything he says about Sabbath observance. There is absolutely no scripture telling Christians about or to observe a "reformed" Sabbath. I have ask over and over for some proof of his findings. Never does he respond with scripture even suggesting Christians are under obligation to "keep" Sabbath. As far as I am concerned all that is garbage, pure false teaching.

He regards ellen white as some kind of guru and defends her to the hilt. Do a search on ellen at www.whiteestate.org and see for yourself what she thought of the Sabbath and how it was to be kept. tom's theory clashes with ellen at every point.

bob_2 · 05-06-12 12:30 pm

In his thread "Reformed Sabbath" he quotes Col 2:16 but not Col 2:17. That is "Cherry-picking Theology", eh???

bshields · 05-06-12 3:09 pm

bob_2 wrote:

In his thread "Reformed Sabbath" he quotes Col 2:16 but not Col 2:17. That is "Cherry-picking Theology", eh???

He is definitely not truthful and refuses to listen to anyone else or the scriptures we present. Maybe he has some glamorous idea 0f becoming a cult leader of a group of people that want to do whatever pleases them and still tell the Lord and people how they are "keeping" Sabbath, something like current SDAs do.

tom_norris · 05-20-12 10:04 am

Bob, as usual, you failed to deal with the points raised. Why is that?

Bob said: Tom, shame on you that you do not go on to tell the group here how those preaching the Gospel for a living were to be sustained:

Tom said: Ha! This is comical? Are you serious?

First off, I have no powers to hide any texts from anyone. Everyone has access to the Bible, and thus there can be no hiding of any texts as you claim.

Second, the passage you cite does not uphold tithe in the church. Paul is only drawing a parallel principle from Judaism, from the Temple services, to show that “those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.”

Paul is not teaching tithe in this verse or any other. And neither was Jesus when he gave the original Gospel instruction about how the Gospel preachers were to be sustained.

Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

Matt. 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matt. 10:7 “And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Matt. 10:8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

Matt. 10:9 “Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,

Matt. 10:10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.

Matt. 10:11 “And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.

Matt. 10:12 “As you enter the house, give it your greeting.

Matt. 10:13 “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.

Matt. 10:14 “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words,
as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

Did you see any reference to tithe? No. There is none, because this is not the method to finance the church.

Note that when a doctrine is found in any of the apostle’s writings, it is not original. It can be traced back to the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. Why? Because Jesus is the source for all Christian doctrine. Thus Paul’s teaching in Cor 9 can be traced directly to Jesus, -like everything else that Paul teaches.

Jesus teaches: “for the worker is worthy of his support.”

Paul agrees and says in Cor 9: “In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.”

Bob said: You would probably say your words to Paul, so you would not have to give.

Tom said: Paul needs no instruction about giving in the church. He correctly understands, and even quotes Jesus while he makes his point. You are in the dark if you think Jesus or Paul is promoting tithe in the church. Impossible. Absurd. There is no tithing in the church in any form or fashion. Period!

Bob continues to defend the false doctrine of tithe that he was taught by the SDA’s. After a lifetime of cultic indoctrination on this point, many believe this myth true.

Tom said: I also grew up thinking tithe true. It made so much sense the way the SDA’s promoted it. But so too did many other errors they promoted.

However, once I discovered the genuine Gospel, and learned how to read the NT, the error of tithe was easily discovered. It then became an awful doctrine that creates two distinct classes in the church, even as it robs the local church of resources, - and finances an anti-Gospel hierarchy that is not fit to manage the church.

When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too tithe and the Sabbath, and many other doctrines as well.

Bob said: The story of Ananias leaves out the fact that they probably had promised the whole proceeds from the land they sold.

Tom said: The story is not hard to understand. It is not about tithing, but about sharing. They lied about the doctrine of sharing, a doctrine that was being promoted in the church as the only method to finance the early church.

I think you need to read the passage again, and pay close attention to v4.

Acts 5:4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

V4 Proves there was no tithing. The SDA’s teach that everyone owes them 10% on any income that would come in from the sale of property. But Peter specifically says the opposite.

So tithe is a scam, used by those that do not know the Gospel and could care less if it is true or not. Evil has no conscience, much less a desire to follow the Word.

Bob said: Rather than leave the impression the tithe is no more, tell what took it's place.

Tom said: TITHE IS NO MORE! It was replaced with SHARING. What don’t you understand? Even the NCT crowd that you hang out with agrees.

Volker correctly teaches that giving in the NC is between the individual and God. He called such giving in the church Love gifts, which is different from the required tithe of the OC. He correctly repudiates tithe. Why don’t you?

Answer: Because your brain has been indoctrinated to believe in many cultic, SDA errors, tithe being one of the most powerful and wrong. While many leave Adventism, they leave with a warped view of the Bible, for which they must repent and work hard to find genuine truth.

Bob continued to try and defend tithe by saying: As the early Church grew, stewardship must also have been talked about.

Tom said: Of course the church spoke about “stewardship.” But not tithe.

2Cor. 9:5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, so that the same would be ready as a bountiful gift and not affected by covetousness.

2Cor. 9:6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

2Cor. 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

This passage also destroys the myth about tithe in the church. Tithe is based on law, not on whatever “we have purposed in our hearts.” One type of giving is controlled by the Law, while Gospel giving is left up to the individual and God.

Bob said: There was some sort of plan for Paul to ask for the collection to be done before he got there, not to waste time with that when he came.

Tom said: The church shared their resources with other churches in need. But tithing was not involved at any point.

Moreover, if you read this account, the receiving church was to pay back the freely given “gift” and “contribution” when they were able, thus keeping an “equal” relationship within the church.

Did the Priests ever give back the tithe? Were the Levites trying to be equal with the people? No. Tithe is not a “gift” but the law. It was not optional in the OC. Nor was “equality” featured in the OC.

2Cor. 9:12 For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.

2Cor. 9:13 Because of the proof given by this ministry, they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,

Bob protested and said: All that are discussing this, Tom does not tell you that what is given from a sale of land, if promised to the Lord, it could be 100% giving, not a 10% of the sale. That is why Ananias and his wife were killed for lying. They didn't do what they promised to do, give 100% of the sale.

Tom said: The point of the story is this: the early church embraced sharing, not tithing. When A & S lied about sharing, they were judged so that all the church could understand that this method of church finance was not optional. God was showing that honest sharing within the church is how the Gospel is to be financed.

Moreover, this doctrine of sharing is found all over the NT. In fact, the gift from one church to another, was not based on tithe, but on sharing and “equality.” Tithe is based on neither.

Read this account and understand what is taking place:

2Cor. 8:1 Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God, which has been given in the churches of Macedonia,

2Cor. 8:2 that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality.

2Cor. 8:3 For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord,

2Cor. 8:4 begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,

2Cor. 8:5 and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.

2Cor. 8:6 So we urged Titus that as he had previously made a beginning, so he would also complete in you this gracious work as well.

2Cor. 8:7 But just as you abound in everything, in faith and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also.
2Cor. 8:8 I am not speaking this as a command, but as proving through the earnestness of others the sincerity of your love also.

2Cor. 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.

2Cor. 8:10 I give my opinion in this matter, for this is to your advantage, who were the first to begin a year ago not only to do this, but also to desire to do it.

2Cor. 8:11 But now finish doing it also, so that just as there was the readiness to desire it, so there may be also the completion of it by your ability.

2Cor. 8:12 For if the readiness is present, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.

2Cor. 8:13 For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality —

2Cor. 8:14 at this present time your abundance being a supply for their need, so that their abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be equality;

2Cor. 8:15 as it is written, “HE WHO gathered MUCH DID NOT HAVE TOO MUCH, AND HE WHO gathered LITTLE HAD NO LACK.”

2Cor. 8:16 But thanks be to God who puts the same earnestness on your behalf in the heart of Titus.

Let all understand what is taking place here. A local church with abundant resources supported another local church that was in poverty. Not with tithe, but with a free will gift. Not only that, it was a gift that was expected to be paid back, further proving that this was not tithe, or anything like it.

2Cor. 8:13-14 For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality — at this present time your abundance being a supply for their need, so that their abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be equality;

Do you see it? “Equality” in giving is a doctrine in the church. Tithe is not based on “equality,” but on the superiority of a class of elite priests that rule over the people and are supported by the non-priestly class. A very unequal situation, which was law.

There can be no unequal giving in the church; that is, to a hierarchy that will not give back. The SDA hierarchical system is not built on equality but on the OC doctrine of tithe and on the superiority of the priesthood over the people, called pastors. It is a false system that repudiates the Gospel.

Once the Gospel is correctly understood, it will become apparent that tithe is a false doctrine in the church. There is absolutely no defense or justification for such OC doctrine in the church. It is a great evil that must be confessed and corrected before the SDA’s can go forward. They are stuck in the OC, which is why they are self-destructing. No one should defend their many false doctrines.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 05-21-12 7:44 pm

Hub asked: Tom, You talk about the "OC hierarchy." Exactly what is your concept of the OC? 

Tom said: This discussion is not about “my concepts.” It is about the facts of history. The OC is not something that we in the 21st century get to revise or even define. The history of Judaism speaks for itself and so too does the NT record of the church.

The writings of the Jews, primarily the OT contains a record of how the OC was defined and administered. There is no debate about how to understand this ancient religious paradigm. We are dealing with history, in the context of the Gospel Story.

With that said; the OC was based on law, even as it was a male dominated, Priest dominated paradigm, with two distinct classes, (Priest and non priest), and a Temple full of rituals.

The OC was a very unequal configuration that would be dramatically changed in the NC, where equality and mercy are featured.

OC Abolished by the Gospel:

Instead of a priestly hierarchy supported by tithe, all in the NC were priests, even the women. Which is why there was no tithe. There was no separate priesthood, even as they were all part of the Gospel Temple called the church. So they shared. They did not tithe, or do anything like it.

Moreover, while there was a head church in Jerusalem, where the apostles managed the Gospel, this church did not own or control any of the local churches. These local churches were self-governing, without owing any financial allegiance, tax, or tithe to the Jerusalem church or to the apostles.

In fact, Paul taught that the local churches were to share equally with each other as they had a need. They did not have to ask any approval from Jerusalem for such a transaction, much less pay any funds to the leaders at any time. This idea that there was tithing in the early church is utterly false. There was no more tithing then there was a Sunday Sabbath.

Today the SDA organizational structure is based on the OC paradigm of tithing. The church is controlled by a handful of elites, ruling from a closed, OC system, where they are above everyone else, and treated as if they were above others. This is wrong and forbidden by the Gospel.

Furthermore, when you see how the leaders managed the church in Acts, you see them getting the approval of the people before they move forward. It was democratic, not autocratic.

It was also equal; there were not two classes of people, much less where one large group supports a small elite group with tithe, giving them ultimate control over doctrine, as well as ownership of every local church and institution. Such an OC hierarchical system is sinful and disgusting to heaven.

The SDA’s have it all wrong. The local church does not exist for the pleasure and control of an elite class in Silver Spring who pretend they are worthy of tithe.

The local church is not to be a source of funds and resources for the priestly class, which are today called pastors. This is outrageous and very wrong.

The Advent Movement must be re-organized from an OC model to a NC version where there is no tithe, because all are priests, both the men and the women, and everyone is equal.

The local church must own and manage its own resources. Making sure to take care of its own members. This is their first priority. Not to pay tithe and create a corrupt ruling class to control and abuse them.

The SDA system is false and very wrong. Look around and see what results have been obtained with this OC system. The Gospel cannot survive in such an environment.

The Advent Movement needs another organizational model. One that is democratic and congregational in nature. One where all are equal in Christ, and one where the local church owns, controls, and uses its resources for its own members.

Hub asked: Why was the Adventist church organized in the first place?

Tom said: Adventism was organized to defend, protect, and promote the new reforms about the 2nd Coming. Even though the Millerites had been wrong about the date, they were not wrong about the basic doctrine of the visible, literal, and pre-millennial 2nd Coming.

The Advent Movement is an eschatological paradigm. The SDA’s are an extension of this mission. They were supposed to promote further reforms that were meant to prepare the church for the soon return of Christ. This is why they promoted Sabbath Reform. It was part of their eschatology.

Furthermore, it is clear that the SDA’s were not organized to invent false doctrine, such as tithe in the church, or the IJ, but to recover truth about the Gospel. No. This is not what they were ever supposed to do, but this is what they have done.

Hub said: Granted, the "hierarchy" is human and faulty. What would you suggest in its place?  I guess the LDS get along with no paid clergy. Is this what you recommend?

Tom said: The top leaders in the apostolic church proved to be very faulty and human. (See Galatians). They even caused a big fight in the church, which caused all manner of problems.

But guess what? The leaders had no control or ownership over the local churches. Nor did they ever try such a power play.

While they had teaching authority, they had no way to enforce or control anyone. Nor did they ever try to set up a system where they could rule over the members, owning the local churches and forcing the members to pay them tithe, - or any money.

Of course this type of OC system was soon developed, which became the RCC. They set up a hierarchical system, complete with a separate priestly class and a high priest called the Pope. They even have a Temple, even as they own and control every local church in the world, and rule them through an OC style hierarchy. Just like the OC Jews and now the SDA’s.

In conclusion, it is time for the Advent Movement to repent for their many false, OC doctrines, including TITHE.

It is time for them to embrace the Gospel with both hands and move into the light of the NC.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Gospel Reform in the Adventist Community

Adventists for Tomorrow

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#126 04-09-10 1:44 pm

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

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