Peace on Earth Starts at Home

maggie · 01-25-09 12:46 am

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Child-spanking as Sexual Abuse By Leila Holm Child abuse researcher at Åbo Akademi University in Vasa, Finland 2005 The Nordic countries are perfect examples of how changes also in attitude may lead to fewer cases of abuse. Here, people have realized that the weakest members of our society are equally worthy of effective protection against assault, abuse and meaningless violence. At the same time, we must realize that things have their own order. In many countries, social unjustice is still a widespread problem, with women, the poor and minorities are systematically discriminated against daily. In such countries, one can find people who believe poverty and racism to be bigger problems that ought to be solved first, before focusing on the rights of the child. As a child abuse researcher, I must protest against such a statement. I believe that the neglect of our children ought to be remedied first, as these children inevitably grow up with such neglect as their only frame of reference and are thereby prone to pass it on to their own children. Peace on earth starts at home. <a href="http://www.nospank.net/holm.htm#conclusions" target="_blank">http://www.nospank.net/holm.htm#conclusions</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

cadge · 01-25-09 1:33 am

Well Maggie, there are those who believe that the Bible, or God rather, doesn't teach the "no spank" method. <a href="http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/pdf/TTTChildTrainingControlandTeaching.pdf" target=_top>http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/pdf/TTTChildT rainingControlandTeaching.pdf</a>

maggie · 01-25-09 9:28 am

Yes, I was part of a spank-the-child-with-a-rod cult for many years. I regret every day I believed that violence is a way of expressing love.

bob_2 · 01-25-09 11:39 am

Maggie, calling an organization a spank-the-child-with-a-rod cult is like homosexuals having to say they are one. Neither is necessary. Nor that you are heterosexual, it is not required to state it. My daughter when she was quite younger, said to me her dad, when her mom was at work. "I am not going to obey you." I spanked her, because I envisioned her running into the street as I yelled after, "You might get killed." As I spanked her I told her why. Her defiance could get her killed. It was not child or sexual abuse in anyway, no matter what you may say. Yours is radical thinking. My oldest daughter, all I had to do was raise my voice to "discipline" her and she would be in tears. The youngest, at times I feared for her life at times and would have to intervene with "stiffer" measures, not always spanking but denial of freedom, time outs etc. Your position is radical. You started the thread, so be it. I would suggest you go see Clint Eastwood's latest movie "Grand Torino" and see how kids without discipline can turn out and the violence from those children to adults and the helpless that can happen when proper training doesn't exist in their life. Then let's talk.

renie · 01-25-09 3:37 pm

I'm with you Maggie. As a CASA (court appointed special advocate) for abused and neglected children, I see children spanked with all kinds of things, belts, hoses, shovels, anything a parent can get his/her hands on. Once a parent decides to do a physical punishment, it quickly gets out of hand. I remember the spankings I got as a kid. Those memories are NOT positive. . Spankings IS a form of violence no matter how you look at it.A parent is teaching a child that violence is the answer to dealing with a problem. We have so many effective and helpful ways of dealing with unmanagable kids today, there's no excuse to hit a child. I to spanked my kids back in my day, if you didn't spank, you were spoiling your kids. I regret doing that although they managed to grow up to love me anyway. My son and daughter are raising their children without spanking and I am so glad of that. You mention, Bob, denial of freedom, time outs etc. Those are excellent forms of disipline and will work. renie

bob_2 · 01-25-09 4:24 pm

Anything can be done in excess, including drinking coffee, that can lead to serious diseases. You have made your choice in that regard. But children that are totally out of control can receive a lot worse consecquences than a hand to a diaper padded rump. Abuse, and violence are overworked words, usually by feminists, yet the stats show women are as guilty of violence or perpetrating of violence to their mates as the other way around. We need to not over work these two words, because abuse may be in the eye of the beholder in the grocery store. I remember working at Portland Adventist Hospital in the 70s and I was incharge of Hospital owned housing. One of the occupants told me a story that I found interesting. One particular evening, his son was throwing a tantrum and like a "good" parent he was letting it play out. But the volumn increased. One of the neighbors thinking that "abuse" was going on, called the cops, only for them to find that this little brat was just airing his longs. Had he recieve a pat on the butt, the incident may not have gone as far as it did. IMHO. If I was watching someone's kids, I would want the full story on discipline and the manipulation that their kids may be into. To tie your hands on the spanking rule, I believe is dangerous, as I have pointed out before. Better a reddened rear than a dead child.

bob_2 · 01-25-09 4:27 pm

One last word, because guns are misused by thugs, should we tie the hands of police in their use, that may result in violence? [DAH! Guns when they go off for good reasons create violence, right?]

maggie · 01-25-09 8:13 pm

Well, it was a cult. But that's another thread. I don't assume that the only way to train a helpless human being who is less than half my size is to hit him or her. These days, like Renie, I have much more respect for a child's intelligence and personhood than to assume such a thing. Violence begets violence, and thus it has ever been.

cadge · 01-25-09 9:05 pm

Maggie and Irene, this is some exposure about the same guy that heads the Twelve Tribes that the child training post is about that I gave above at 12:33 a.m. on 1/25/o9. (Hephzibah is a small child that accompanied this cult leader and his wife to Europe, Germany I believe. This is an excerpt from one of his child training teachings that was posted on FACTNET by someone who had been a member of the cult and was joining others in exposing the evil within. FACTNET is a website that was started by a fortunate former member of Scientology, Paul Wollersheim, and another guy to expose the evils of cultic organizations.) Yoneq(cult founder) was so proud of his actions he published it the "teaching" "Execution of Justice" page 5. "Hephzibah is coming to understand that she is living for her father and belongs to him. The other day she was having great difficulty being obedient to his command: not to suck her thumb in bed. Elber asked her to stick out her thumb because he was going to cut it off. He took a huge pair of scissors and came toward her. She was terrified, but (after receiving her discipline) she willingly stuck out her thumb to be cut off rather than let it cause her to stumble in her obedience to her father." Execution of Justice - Page 5 ------- Comment by ex member: How do you "interpret" this teaching? All any of us has to do is read his own words. We didn't have to be there. By the way, this is the same little girl who Yoneq wrote about in the same teaching: ------ "Tell Hannah that Hephzibah is like Paul and says: “From now on let no one cause me trouble for I bear on my body the brand marks of Yahshua.” They are blue and she is receiving her discipline. She is growing up to be that last generation, being prepared, even in her nervous system, to be in that hour of supreme demand. Love Elbert." Elbert Spriggs(Yoneq), Execution of justice, Page 4. ----------------- The amazing thing is the mind numbing loyalty that these decieved people that follow him give. Many have been with him from the beginning 35 yrs ago. They believe that he has a direct pipeline to God, that they are the remnant and that they are building the 144,000. ------------ Can you believe that this guy is walking around free and that he is permitted to be around children? Cadge

elaine · 01-25-09 9:23 pm

Correctional officials have said that not a single inmate was incarcerated who had not been spanked as a child. I'm with Renie and Maggs. Spanking is, for many parents, the first and last recourse for trying to discipline a child. Parenting courses should be mandatory, beginning in middle school, on different ways, other than spanking, of training children. Never has there been an abused and beaten child who was raised by a non-spanking parent. Most get completely out of control, and often end up horribly beating the child, or worse, killing it. Imagine how we, as adults would feel, if we were corrected by a policeman with violence and beaten by a baton, if we drove past the speeding limit, or such. To a small child, spanking by a much larger parent, teaches a lesson that power is the important thing, and that is what they will use with their playmates to also gain power. Are those the lessons we want them to learn? Many more effective ways can be shown that eliminate the need for ever spanking a child.

maggie · 01-25-09 9:49 pm

Totally agree, Elaine. And Cadge, several months ago I read that horrible, sickening stuff about the 12 Tribes group, and about the murder and all that. Lord have mercy. I was sucked into the Bill Gothard cult (no inner sense of myself). Bad enough, to be sure, but nothing like 12 Tribes.

bob_2 · 01-26-09 1:08 am

Maggie, you are indeed a radical, with words like "hit" "abuse" "violence" applied to a swat against a padded butt when a young non-reasoning child is out of control, shows how out of touch you are with reality. It must have been some time since you were eye to eye with a totally defiant youngster, throwing a temper tantrum. You haven't convinced me and both my kids are in their 20s. I would have no problem with my kids using a swat on a padded butt to move things along. Until they are 18, they are minors, and have to be directed, sometimes with a battle of wills, on the younger side, some force to prevent harm to themselves.

bob_2 · 01-26-09 1:15 am

Elaine, you have lost touch with reality and over emphasize those that truly abuse. Here in St. Louis, a father, not married to the mother, threw his child against the wall when it didn't stop crying. These are the exceptions rather than the rule. Again, you and Maggie have been a long time from being face to face with a totally rigid, out of control, temper tantrum youngster. Abuse is never warranted, but a spank ona padded butt is hardly abuse. Your statistic about incarcerated individuals having been spanked, give me the source, because for a while that was always the manner of discipline, and I know very few parents that don't have to resort to a pat on the butt once in a while, 5 year olds, or younger, do not reason with adults too well.

bob_2 · 01-26-09 1:36 am

My sentiments exactly: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Is Spanking Child Abuse? First and foremost, I will define three key words to this write-up before I begin. Spank; to slap or smack (someone) on the bottom. Spanking; a series of slaps on the bottom with the open hand, to punish a child etc. And then we will define Abuse; misuse, ill-treatment, an instance of injustice or corruption. Is spanking really child abuse? That is the question I will mainly address in this write-up. Spanking is a form of discipline, and sometimes necessary to get your point across to a child. The bible even addresses this matter in Proverbs 23:13,14(New World Translation) which reads; 13. Do not hold back discipline from the mere boy. In case you beat him with the rod, he will not die. 14. With the very rod you yourself should beat him, that you may deliver his very soul from Sheol itself. The rod in these scriptures is used to symbolize parental authority over children. Now I am not a bible thumper, and am not a fan of organized religion. I do however respect the bible as being inspired by God, and useful for handling everyday problems. Picture this, you are in a public place and your child starts acting up, or has decided to throw a tantrum. What do you do? Do you stand there and watch your child be completely unreasonable and disgraceful? Or do you discipline him/her? When I say discipline I do not mean simply physical discipline, you can also give verbal discipline. But what happen when your child disregards your verbal rebukes? That is where the spanking enters the picture. But you as parents need to make it clear why your child is recieving the spanking. And always tell them you love them afterwards, and never make them feel unloved or abused. There are people out there, who feel that swatting your child on the rear is absolutely evil and abusive. Is this view reasonable? I believe in the long run, spanking gets your much needed discipline instilled in you child's mind, and teaches them to be mannerly and polite, knowing right and wrong. Or at least knowing what you teach them to be right and wrong. Spanking is not always appropriate, and I know that my parents seldom disciplined me in public, with the exception of extreme cases when I was really being a stubborn ass. What about over doing it? Is that possible with spanking? In one word, yes. There has to be a balance for discipline to work correctly. In one extreme you can over-discipline, on the other hand, there could be a seriouse lack of discipline. It is up to the parent to decide what is necessary discipline for their child. I do believe a lot of parents, due to frustration or lack of love mainly, over use spanking as a method of discipline. Is that abuse? Well if you'll recall the definition of abuse, you'll remember the word misuse. That is where spanking becomes abusive. When they misuse this method of discipline. This may lead your children to think you have a lack of respect for their emotional needs, as well as disrespect for life in general. And can sever the link between parent and child very abruptly. The bottom line is this, it is solely up to the parent to decide where the line between simple, and deserved discipline lies, and that of abuse. Do not conform to anybody elses way of thinking, because they don't know whats best for your child, you do. It is YOUR child, and YOUR responsibility. You should raise them in the manner YOU see fit, but you have to watch out, because the line between physical discipline and abuse isn't far off. Just be reasonable when disciplining, sometimes giving your child a good swat on the butt isn't the answer. Sometimes, however, it is. And always make sure they understand what they did was wrong, and always tell them "I love you". <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> http://everything2.com/e2node/Is%2520spanking%2520really%2520child%2520abuse%253F Note the definitions of abuse and discipline. Elaine and Maggie have taken their definitions too far, these IMO are more reasonable. Also note the law and definitions in California: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:California Law not intended to prohibit the use of reasonable methods of parental discipline, or to prescribe a particular method of parenting. Serious physical harm does not include reasonable and age-appropriate spanking to the buttocks where there is no evidence of serious physical injury. Welfare and Institutions Code § 300. [Civil Code] Abuse includes unlawful corporal punishment or injury. Penal Code § 11165.6. [Criminal Code] "Unlawful corporal punishment or injury" is any person willfully inflicting upon a child any cruel or inhuman corporal punishment or injury resulting in a traumatic condition. Penal Code § 11165.4. [Criminal Code] [California Statutes] <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> (Message edited by Bob_2 on January 26, 2009)

bob_2 · 01-26-09 1:39 am

Here's Missouri's law and definition: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Missouri Discipline including spanking, administered in a reasonable manner, is not abuse. § 210.110. [Civil Code] Force justified if by parent/guardian/other person with care and supervision of minor if- -- Person believes force necessary to promote welfare of minor, and -- Force used is not designed to cause or believed to create a substantial risk of causing death, serious physical injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, or extreme emotional distress. § 563.061. [Criminal Code] [Missouri Revised Statutes] <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I have no problem with California or Missouri's laws and definitions. They are spot on what constitutes abuse without being overly restrictive in discipline tactics.

elaine · 01-26-09 8:20 pm

Thanks, Expert Bob. When a child begins a tantrum, they are usually small enough to carry to their room and close the door, with a warning they cannot come out until they get over it. When this is done when the child is small, they will not exhibit a tantrum when they are bigger. If outside, such as in a store, a quiet whisper that if they don't stop, when we get home they will realize what they have done wrong. Have you ever watched the TV "Nanny" or "Super Nanny"? She takes charge of a family where the children or completely out of control. But, she NEVER uses physical or corporal punishment. You should watch it. She also spends more time teaching the parents how to be a good parent as they are the problem by letting their children get totally out of control. When a parent begins early enough to show the child that the parents rule the house, not the child, there are minimal problems. I've seen this close up with my three, and with two grandchildren with different mothers. Sometimes "tough love" is required, but never corporal punishment which always is the resort when parents have not learned how to raise children. The best method is to reward and praise good behavior, which children desperately want--to please their parents and be recognized for doing good things.

bob_2 · 01-26-09 11:31 pm

Elaine, I guess that is why most states are reluctant to restrict corporal punishment, eh, due to activist, not expert, types like yourself. Moderation, not out of control anger in discipline is not out of line. You want to takes things, not just in this conversation, but others also, to extreme ends of the continuum of acceptability and decorum. Ever heard of a Centrist???

don · 01-27-09 8:23 am

We all develop in our attitudes and behavior re: child rearing. I knew a mother who used corporeal punishment early in her motherhood. She had a rather large family. Later, she consciously decided not to use corporeal punishment anymore. Instead, she would sit them in the kitchen. Just out of reach of each other, if they had been fighting with a sibling. They were not allowed to get up until they were cheerful with each other. Regarding, sending a child to their room if they have misbehaved: I am not in favor of such a practice. Instead, I believe that parents should sit the offending child near them. This provides opportunity for dialogue. It also calls for verbal discipline of the parent. If Jesus drew Judas closer to himself, we certainly can do so with children with their minor problems. I am not saying that banishment to one's bedroom is totally wrong. I just don't believe in it, personally. .

maggie · 01-27-09 11:29 am

Don, I have the same instincts about banishing a child to his/her room. Children are every moment relational. It is we disconnected adults who teach them to disconnect, to the detriment of their well being, our own well being, and that of world peace.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Babies are born loving perfectly. They give fully, trust completely and enter every moment with an awareness of connection. --Lauren Porter, Co-Director, Centre for Attachment (NZ)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

bob_2 · 01-27-09 1:41 pm

Don and Maggie, you are too far away from the terrible two's. That's ok, discipline matures like everything else. Excesses in everything, diet, exercise, discipline..... all can be harmful. Extremism and radicalism in any arena is harmful. I'll stick by my original statements, that may save a child's life that can not understand that "the big truck" on the road is not to play with, but can kill. Better a pat on the back side than a child on the grill of that truck, any day of the week. Let's hope George Mitchell can use peaceful means to get through to Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel. If not other means to settle the matter or keep the peace will follow. Not all can be reasoned with even when adult let alone at 2 years of age.

bob_2 · 01-27-09 1:43 pm

BTW, Don, I bet that mother could not have used the chair punishment with a 2 year old. Times matured her, but the age of the children matured her to different practices also.

renie · 01-27-09 2:39 pm

I watched Maureen Bright, a leading child advocate who worked with Dr. Bruce Perry, well known child expert, handle a little two-year-old boy in day care. He was on the floor, screaming, kicking and hitting out at anything. She took his struggling little body onto her lap and held him close to her chest, talked to him in a soft voice, repeating the same words, "calm down, Johnny, calm down Johnny" over and over. It took about three minutes until he put his arms around her shoulders and just sobbed. Then she was able to talk and listen to him. It DOES take more time to disipline a child this way than to spank but a parent becomes a safe haven for the child and that is so important. Mrs. Bright doesn't believe in isolating a child to his/her room either. Boy, do I wish I could go back and do some of it over. renie

elaine · 01-27-09 9:18 pm

Neither do I recommend banishing a child to his room except when he is in a tantrum. When there is no audience, it is amazing how quickly quietness resumes. The small child is very perceptive and often uses this tactic in public. There, it cannot be ignored, but it should never occur in an older child if it is stopped quick in a small child. Once a child finds it is effective, it is repeated. Just as in ignoring a whining child: Let him know that only when he speaks normally, will he be heard. Again, not all behavior needs to be noticed, but good behavior, when praised, goes a long way. Just think of yourself as an adult: appreciation is so much more effective than criticism. Studies have shown that most parents disapprove in language nearly 75% compared to praise. Think about it.

maggie · 01-28-09 11:39 am

Still, I'm wary of using Behaviorism on children, like they were Pavlov's dogs or something....

maggie · 01-28-09 12:01 pm

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:The Long Dark Night of Behaviorism What happened to the children of psychologist J.B. Watson, his granddaughter Mariette Hartley, and Deborah, the second daughter of psychologist B.F. Skinner? I think it was Eric Berne, the founder of Transactional Analysis psychotherapy, who coined the phrase "The long dark night of Behaviorism". The Behaviorist approach to experimental psychology was inaugurated by J.B. Watson in a manifesto entitled Psychology as the Behaviorist Views It, published in Psychological Review in 1913. He was the editor of the journal at the time and head of the psychology department at Johns Hopkins University. Behaviorism became the ruling paradigm in psychology for at least fifty years - until the early 1970s - and probably its best known exponent was B.F. Skinner. To sum up what Behaviorism stood for, I'll quote a passage from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World Revisited (published in 1958). Huxley uses the British spelling of 'behaviour':<blockquote>For practical or theoretical reasons, dictators, Organization Men and certain scientists are anxious to reduce the maddening diversity of men's natures to some kind of manageable uniformity. In the first flush of his Behaviouristic fervour, J.B. Watson roundly declared that he could find "no support for hereditary patterns of behaviour, nor for special abilities (music, art, etc.) which are supposed to run in families." And even today we find a distinguished psychologist, Professor B.F. Skinner of Harvard, insisting that, "as scientific explanation becomes more and more comprehensive, the contribution which may be claimed by the individual himself appears to approach zero. Man's vaunted creative powers, his achievements in art, science and morals, his capacity to choose and our right to hold him responsible for the consequences of his choice - none of these is conspicuous in the new scientific self-portrait."</blockquote><a href="http://robothink.blogspot.com/2005/09/long-dark-night-of-behaviorism.html" target="_blank">http://robothink.blogspot.com/2005/09/long-dark-ni ght-of-behaviorism.html</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:"Grandfather's theories infected my mother's life, my life, and the lives of millions. How do you break a legacy? How do you keep from passing a debilitating inheritance down, generation to generation, like a genetic flaw?" <a href="http://robothink.blogspot.com/2005/09/long-dark-night-of-behaviorism.html" target="_blank">http://robothink.blogspot.com/2005/09/long-dark-night-of-behaviorism.html</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Yes, indeed. How? How do you break a legacy? (Message edited by maggie on January 28, 2009)

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