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Quote: <BR> <BR>"The Ministry of Social Affairs and Health is proposing that expectant mothers with substance abuse problems be committed against their will if the unborn child is deemed in danger. <BR>Under current laws, the state may intervene to commit pregnant women for up to five days on foetal health protection grounds. A working group under the ministry now wants to see the period for forced commitment extended to 30 days and that women could be held for the entire duration of their pregnancies, should the situation warrant it. " <BR> <BR>Source: <BR><a href="http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/02/pregnant_substance_abusers_may_face_involuntary_commitment_519542.html" target=_top>http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/02/pregnant_substa nce_abusers_may_face_involuntary_commitment_519542 .html</a>
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Except, of course, if she wants to actually <i>kill</i> the baby? <BR> <BR>That would be OK? <BR> <BR>Ummmm....
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There have been pictures of women giving birth while shackled to their beds in other countries. Is this the image any country would desire? <BR> <BR>If the only way to prevent abortion would be to imprison a woman until birth, is that also a good idea? Should our U.S. Constituion ever condone slavery of anyone under those conditions? <BR>As much as those who hate abortion, surely, they are not willing to imprison either the woman or the physician who performs one. <BR> <BR>BTW, illegal abortions in another country ended with prosecution of the woman who claimed to be a physician. Abortions will always be performed, just as they always have. If made illegal, what should be the consequences? Are sterile abortions under a physician better than the back-alley that was previously used?
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Elaine <BR> <BR>I was looking around trying to decide whether to add the Catholic/Brazil/Abortion story to an existing thread or start a new thread when I found your comments above. <BR> <BR>You bring up a good point that never seems to be discussed: If abortion is a "Right to Privacy" issue as the Supreme Court ruled in Roe v Wade what would stop the government from imposing "standards of health" for pregnant women in the name of rights for the unborn? <BR> <BR>Bed rest to reduce the likelihood of spontaneous abortion? <BR> <BR>Registering with the government when you discover you are pregnant? <BR> <BR>Murder charges if you exercise too hard (including sex) leading to "probable cause" that the mother was responsible for the spontaneous abortion (murder) of the zygote/fetus? <BR> <BR>If we have a constitutional right to privacy but it is ruled that being pregnant is not "private" the ramifications could be treacherous for those expecting. <BR> <BR>IMO, of course. <BR> <BR>Thanks for your ideas along these lines. <BR> <BR>Keep on thinking!
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The young 9-yr. old Brazilian, impregnated by her stepfather, was aborted and the Catholic church has excommunicated the family for "allowing" the abortion!! <BR> <BR>Another example of the "soul-savers" who wish to see every pregnancy, regardless of the circumstances or dire results, go to term. <BR> <BR>This was the argument used by the mother of octuplets: she couldn't bear to think of those frozen embryos not being "used" so, rather than paying for storage, or destroying them, she and her unethical doctor, implanted her with all, with the awful results: Now, 14 children under the age of 8! <BR> <BR>JR used to say it was all up to the girl: if she only kept her legs crossed, she would not become pregnant. Tell that to the little girl whose father so horribly abused her. This happens every day, not only in the U.S. but worldwide. <BR> <BR>The old saying is true: "If men became pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."
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As I told Neal, Jesus response would be after the abortion, go and sin no more.
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Also, even though the Bible doesn't speak of abortion, this passage comes real close: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>Psalm 139:13-16 (New International Version) <BR> <BR> 13 For you created my inmost being; <BR> you knit me together in my mother's womb. <BR> <BR> 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; <BR> your works are wonderful, <BR> I know that full well. <BR> <BR> 15 My frame was not hidden from you <BR> when I was made in the secret place. <BR> When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, <BR> <BR> 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. <BR> All the days ordained for me <BR> were written in your book <BR> before one of them came to be <BR><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>Now if you believe you can kill for incest or rape what of amniocentesis and abortion for determination of deformities and or desired sex if in a country that limits birth to parents, to one child, when males are preferred.
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Any nation that wishes to gain authority of reproduction could end up like China where one child only is allowed, unless it is female, then they may be given "permission" to have a second. <BR>Oddly, there are many more female abortions or infanticides than males.
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<font color="0000ff">As I told Neal, Jesus response would be after the abortion, go and sin no more.</font> <BR> <BR>Show me how abortion is a sin according to the Bible. <BR> <BR>Cuz Bob doesn't like it doesn't make it a Biblical sin.
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<font color="0000ff">When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,</font> <BR> <BR>I can find passages in the Mosaic law which imply abortion. A poem about being woven together in the ground is hardly indicative of anything in reality.
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<font color="0000ff">Now if you believe you can kill for incest or rape... </font> <BR> <BR>Aborting a nonviable fetus is not killing. Again, you have taken an atheistic science finding and applied a judgment which EXPLICITLY contradicts your holy book. <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">... what of amniocentesis and abortion for determination of deformities and or desired sex if in a country that limits birth to parents, to one child, when males are preferred.</font> <BR> <BR>What about it? Its a MOOT point as the official interpreters of the Constitution of the United States has ruled that this is a PRIVATE matter. If you don't like it move to Brazil.
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So you would say that a 9-yr old girl impregnated by her father had sinned by having an abortion?? <BR> <BR>She was sinned against, not sinning by an abortion, something she may not have chosen because of her age, but her mother (?) had it done. What would you have suggested for such a situation? That she carry it to term, when she might have been a 10-yr. old mother?? Such compassion is astounding.
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I would suggest the abortion, but, I would also say it is a necessary sin that would not be necessary in a non sinful world. The child is a product of a violent act and the man should be punished, and the product of the act aborted, but that does not make it less a sin. Thank goodness, God is the judge not you, Neal or I.
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<font color="0000ff">... I would also say it is a necessary sin....</font> <BR> <BR>Doing the right thing is sinful? <BR> <BR>Interesting concept you have there Bob.
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Ecclesiastes 11:5 As you do not know the path of the wind, <BR> or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, <BR> so you cannot understand the work of God, <BR> the Maker of all things.
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Except we now know the path of the wind, <BR>AND know how the body is formed in a mother's womb, <BR>so we do know how nature works, <BR>and how all things are the result of natural processes.
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Then have respect for God's handywork.
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<font color="0000ff">Then have respect for God's handywork.</font> <BR> <BR>You obviously did not understand my post.
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