Sin and Forgiveness

john8verse32 · 06-05-09 11:09 am

I believe that Christ came to restore our broken relationship with God. This relationship was broken as a result of sin....Devon I used to believe that too.... but then I reread the Bible....this time with a few new questions... wondering about the whole story of original "sin"....and how did this original "sin" come about? 1) according to Hebrew law, no one was to be punished for another's sin, each was only to be punished for his own sin; so how is it right, as claimed by paul, for all of us to be punished for our alleged ancestors "sin"? 2) God allegedly created (by speaking into existance?) two new, non sophicated, naive people who therefore had no history, no experience in life or how it works, about 6000 yrs ago... unfortunately, everything we have learned in the last few years about archeology, history, geology, and genetics, points out the improbability of this being the whole story, and nothing but the story. 3) even the philosophy of the story raises questions: God is said to have approved his creation, all appearing "good"....yet, maybe as a "test"??? He makes one tree off limits despite being omniscient...meaning he should have known about human curiosity which he allegedly created....and if as described by religionists, He is also clairvoyant and knows the future, he should have known that his two, naive creatures with no history, no education, and no life experience behind them would be subject to being easily misled. 4) And then this creator God, who is said to be our "loving heavenly father", allows a snake in the grass to enter the picture without warning his "children".... what father (especially an omniscient one) would not warn his kids to be careful where they play knowing there are deadly snakes around? 5) the snake "DECEIVED" Eve....while telling her the truth!!!! presumably speaking hebrew, the talking snake assured them they would NOT die that very day, like God had threatened, but would receive knowledge like the gods.... what child would not want the knowledge of the gods? the upshot is that God did not tell the whole truth...He had said they would die that very day, and they did not. They lived for 900 yrs if you believe the Hebrews didn't get the decimal place wrong. 6) Now comes the part where God could have shown His Christianity, and forgiven the naive couple...He cudda easily said... ..."Look...I'm sorry I forgot to warn you about that slippery, magical talking snake presumably speaking in hebrew like I do... so I tell you what I'm gonna do... instead of expelling you guys from this garden, and ruining everything I've done to make this a nice place, and making you grow old and die, and making the ground hard to work, and allowing the Olde Debil to exercise his powers of creation and make bad bacteria and viruses and mosquitoes and AIDS and poisonous mushrooms which will make your life miserable, and worse, the Debil is planning to change lions teeth from molars to incisors just to eat other animals and maybe even you instead of grass.... because I'm still relatively proud of what I've done so far, except for the dinos which I'm going to have to knock off with either an asteroid or vulcanism and bury under the iridium layer, I don't want all those devilish changes to happen, so I'm gonna be the nice guy you later will presume I am, and forgive you like Jesus will later tell us all to do, and I'm gonna give you guys another chance....only next time, I'll put up a fence and a sign to remind you. then, later if that doesn't work, and you "sin" again, then you'll have to kill your own firstborn kids just to make me happy..but later we'll graduate to innocent sheep and goats since you'll probably need your kids to help farm that land I'm making hard to till..and later I'll command you to go kill all your neighbors, including little boys and any women who have had sex... but I'll expect you to use the virgins to enlarge your tribe despite the fact that I'll forget to warn you that this will dilute your genetic uniqueness. so, I'm gonna start things off with what will later be written about on ATomorrow dot net as "forgiveness". I forgive you...for now....but you guys are on probation for eternity. and if you don't worship me the way I want, and respect the prophets, I'll either send bears to eat your kids, or maybe even later "fire you" after an Investigative Judgement which you won't understand either 7) to make the accounting perfectly divine, for the 7th point, I ask why, since God makes the rules, why couldn't he deviate from them? he made the rules of gravity, inertia, logic and Newton's explanation of momentum, and deviated from those to make the sun stop its rotation around the earth, just so Joshua's army could continue the massacre of their neighbors? He diverged from the rules of genetics to help Jacob cheat Uncle Laban by breeding blemished goats just by staring at striped sticks... He diverged from His rule that "thou shalt not kill", and massacred innocent Egyptian kids and animals in a nazi like attempt to influence the pharoah when he cudda just waterboarded the King himself!! why could he not diverge from the rule that everybody must die because a magical talking snake that nobody warned a naive Eve about, and which "deceived" her... and why did He later inspire Paul to presume against hebrew law that we too must die? just because Eve was deceived? so, Devon...it wonder if it was not man who broke the relationship with God all by themselves... God could easily be seen as at least partially responsible for contributory negligence... ...not putting up the sign and fence? ...not better educating the naive, innocent, easily impressionable Adam & Eve before testing them? ...not warning them about the existance of a magic snake roaming their garden speaking hebrew? ...and it was God's actions in trying to test them in the first place...knowing in advance what they would do? so is this our Loving God? He created naive people like instant oatmeal, and knowing in advance they would fail at His test, He was able to sit back and watch the olde debil ruin His "good" creation with death, disease, poison mushrooms, mosquitoes, arthritis, and government taxes for the muddle class and bailouts for the rich? and then God threw the people out of the garden... all by Himself... with no warning, no jury, no evidenciary hearing, no cross examination.... as judge and jury God decided to separate Himself from people...by evicting them. it was not people that wanted to do the separation , according to the story. if you believe it literally. as written by ancient nomads trying to explain their ancestral history, probably borrowing from other legends and myths celebrated around ancient campfires. emphasis on "probably"

don · 06-05-09 11:21 am

I can't find ANY EVIDENCE that what you claim is consistent with what actually happens. What have I claimed? The major concerns involve wickedness toward other people. I did say: Christ does offer a solution to one's wicked habits or ways. I am aware of the studies re: higher crime in the Bible belt. I am not aware of an established cause and effect. The results create questions for further study. What kind of peer review is it getting? Is it a serious study or just for a light-hearted discussion at a geographers convention? <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:<a href="http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/03/26/Geographers-map-7-deadly-sins-in-US/UPI-24871238098922/" target="_blank">Geographers map 7 deadly sins in U.S.</a> LAS VEGAS, March 26 (UPI) -- Geographers have mapped the sinfulness of the United States, attempting to come up with numbers for each of the seven deadly sins. Thomas Vought and colleagues at Kansas State University devised indexes for sloth, gluttony, lust, greed, wrath, envy and pride, The Las Vegas Sun reported. Sloth was based on spending per capita on arts and entertainment compared to the employment rate, gluttony on fast-food outlets per capita, lust on rates of sexually transmitted disease, greed on average incomes compared to the number of people living below the poverty line, wrath on violent crimes per capita and envy on property crimes. The researchers decided that pride is the master sin and therefore merged the rates of the lesser sins. Vought presented the findings at the American Geographers' meeting Tuesday in Las Vegas, a city sometimes regarded as the sin capital of the United States. The researchers said the Las Vegas area, Clark County, beats the rest of Nevada in most sins but ranks third behind southern gambling centers like Biloxi, Miss., in pride. <a href="http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/03/26/Geographers-map-7-deadly-sins-in-US/UPI-24871238098922/" target=_top>http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/03/26/Geographers-map-7-deadly-sins-in-US/UPI-24871238098922/</a> <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/1380.jpg" alt=""> The original report seems to have come from the Las Vegas Sun. <a href="http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/mar/26/one-nation-seven-sins/" target=_top>http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/mar/26/one-nation-seven-sins/</a> .

don · 06-05-09 11:55 am

More studies on Religion and Society If I have read the abstract correctly, this Swedish study shows that religion and crime have a negative relationship. In other words, where religion is most prevalent the crime rates go down. Religion and Criminality: Structural Relationships between Church Involvement and Crime Rates in Contemporary Sweden Thorleif Pettersson Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 30, No. 3 (Sep., 1991), pp. 279-291 <a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/1386973" target=_top>http://www.jstor.org/pss/1386973</a> ________________________________ This study reports findings from 13 industrial nations.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2wkf2g" target="_blank">Crime and religion: An international comparison among thirteen industrial nations</a> Lee Ellis and James Peterson Department of Sociology, Minot State University, Minot, ND 58707, U.S.A. Received 1 August 1995. Available online 22 February 1999. Abstract At the individual level of analysis, evidence has accumulated in support of the hypothesis that persons who are most religious commit crimes at lower rates than those who are least religious. This study examined the relationship at a societal level, based on 1990–1991 data from 13 industrial nations. Overall, the findings revealed that more religious countries have lower crime rates than less religious countries, at least regarding property crimes (as opposed to either aggressive or victimless offenses). As has been reported when comparing individuals, this relationship was more pronounced in the case of “overt” aspects of religiosity (especially church attendance and church membership) than in the case of any specific religious beliefs. The results were discussed in the context of four theories that predict an inverse religiosity-criminality relationship: control theory, rational choice theory, moral reasoning theory, and arousal theory. Findings from the present study seemed most consistent with moral reasoning theory and arousal theory. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Tittle and Welch (1983) reviewed 59 scientific studies relating personal religiosity with deliquent behavior in youth. Forty-nine of those report an inverse relationship between the two. <a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/1387152" target=_top>http://www.jstor.org/pss/1387152</a> ________________________________ This is the result of a brief survey of a few studies. Do people who "give their hearts to Jesus" commit more crime than those that do not? Less crime? The answer seems obvious. A person who dedicates his or her life to moral living is more likely to behave in an increased moral way. Do those who reject the moral preaching of their society rebel and create more crime than those who have not been preached at? Who rebels more, the kid who has overtly demanding moralizing parents or the kid who has supportive, kindly parents? This too seems obvious. .

neal · 06-05-09 12:37 pm

<blockquote>... 59 scientific studies relating personal religiosity with deliquent behavior in youth. Forty-nine of those report an inverse relationship between the two.</blockquote> That makes total sense. If youth are kept under tight control of course they will commit less crime/trouble. Prisoners don't commit many crimes! <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> When they get out from under their parents control, well, seems to be a different story. I don't have much time so here are a couple of links. One to an article, one to the research report from 2005. Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' <blockquote>RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today. According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems. The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society. It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality. Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills. The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world. “In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies. “The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”</blockquote> <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece" target=_top>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article57 1206.ece</a> And... Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies The original paper is at: <a href="http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html" target=_top>http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html</a> Have a great weekend!

don · 06-05-09 4:21 pm

Have a great weekend! You, too. Thanks for the links. I will try to have a few thoughts presented before the weekend is over. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> .

don · 06-05-09 5:40 pm

Some preliminary observations: Gregory Paul's worldview (see <a href="http://www.box.net/shared/static/92sgtakzv2.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.box.net/shared/static/92sgtakzv2.pdf</a>) and his "scientific" view of religion seem quite predictable. His study still needs to be examined; maybe even more carefully with such obvious bias. Studies by people neutral or even by theists stating similar results would carry more influence, I suspect. It has been suggested that people of the evangelical right are less likely to develop social programs that cost considerable money. Thus, the poor of society tend to be neglected in such societies. This creates "criminal" stresses. Paul has been criticised for not making a difference between the variables involved: Belief in a God; Church Attendance; participation in ritual; belief in a devil and a dualistic cosmic struggle; an intense level of passion engendered by one's beliefs. Several observations: All the nations examined are at least 50% religious. So, at best, the less religious societies have lower homicide rates. Belief in God, attending church and taking part in ritual do not correlate with higher homocide rates. A passionate system involving belief in the activity of the Devil as God's opponent and rigid adherence to a strict behavioral code do seem to be correlated to homocide rates. I suggest that an "unconverted" person's belief in religion, the devil, and retributive justice can lead to higher crime rates than where these religious structures play no role. What do I make of this? Benign views of God and church do not contribute to violence. Belief in supernatural violence and cosmic battles which recruit humans to their help coupled with the "unconverted" heart can be a lethal combination. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Someone who espouses the cosmic battle without the softening influence of Christ's forgiving love will be more violent than the person who is oblivious to all these invisible supernatural influences. Further Reading <a href="http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2006-7.pdf" target="_blank">http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2006-7.pdf</a> <a href="http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf" target="_blank">http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf</a> (Message edited by Don on June 05, 2009)

don · 06-05-09 9:23 pm

For further discussion of Gregory Paul's study I have set up a thread entitled Religion and Civil Society at: <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/1381.html?1244251271" target="_blank">http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/13/1381.h tml?1244251271</a> .

don · 06-06-09 11:48 am

Nickel Mines and Forgiveness, Amish Grace<blockquote><a href="http://www.neorunner.com/archive/2007/10/02/Among_the_Amish_a_Grace_That_Endures.php" target="_blank">Among the Amish, a Grace That Endures</a> By Art Carey, The Philadelphia Inquirer Oct. 2, 2007 NICKEL MINES, Pa. -- The time has come round again. Tasseled stalks of corn stand tall and sere in unseasonable heat. In undulating fields, farmers behind horse-drawn plows turn under the remains of the harvest. Handmade signs advertise pumpkins and fresh cider. In Lancaster County, the pageant of the seasons proceeds; nature keeps its rhythms. In the play yard of the freshly built New Hope Amish School, boys in suspenders and girls in bonnets play softball. Younger children frolic, blond hair flashing in the sun. This time last year, many of those children were learning their lessons in a different one-room schoolhouse. Across the road and not far away, four trees are clustered oddly in a verdant meadow. They seem to be standing sentinel for something that no longer exists. Last October, the schoolhouse they once sheltered was demolished, banished like a bad memory. No trace survives of the West Nickel Mines Amish School. Lush grass covers the scars. Other scars have not been so easy to erase. A year ago today, Charles Carl Roberts IV, a local milk-truck driver, calmly entered that schoolhouse and bound and shot 10 girls before killing himself. Five of the girls survived. In suicide notes and last calls to his wife, Roberts, 32, said he was tormented by memories of molesting two young relatives 20 years ago, and that he had never recovered from the death of his first-born child, Elise. Within hours of this terrible moment, an event that could have fostered despair became marbled with hope as the Amish relied on their traditions and faith to teach lessons of forgiveness, gratitude, resilience and grace. Four of the five injured girls have been able to resume normal life. The fifth, Rosanna King, who was 6 when she was shot, suffered a severe head injury and is unable to talk. She uses a wheelchair and is dependent on others for basic functions. Some of the boys released by Roberts before the slayings are struggling with survivors' guilt. Marie Roberts, the widow of the perpetrator, and her three children have moved to a nearby community. Last spring, she remarried. "She's trying very hard to get on with her life," said the Rev. Kristine Hileman, a Presbyterian minister who became friends with Marie through a prayer group. In June, Marie Roberts "was looking forward to her new life and her new home." Her new husband has two children of his own, Hileman said. "It's a blended family, and they seem to be doing well." In the crossroads settlement of Nickel Mines, the aptly named New Hope Amish School, a handsome brick-and-frame structure with a jaunty cupola, is a defiant symbol of the community's determination to transcend the trauma and thrive. "Individuals who were closest to the situation are still quite wounded, and for them, healing will take a lot of time," Hileman said. "But those further removed have moved on with their lives. Mention Oct. 2 and some don't recognize the significance." The Amish famously avoid publicity, and they are even more protective of their privacy now. The school was closed yesterday and will remain closed today, and there will be no public ceremony or commemorative event. Privately, the Amish will observe the occasion by visiting each other's homes, talking, eating, praying, sharing memories of the departed children, and exchanging cards featuring poems of appreciation. The way the Amish are handling the anniversary is of a piece with their behavior throughout. F. Scott Fitzgerald once defined style as "an unbroken series of perfect gestures." That could be said of the Amish response. But those gestures, undergirded by faith and moral resolve, surpassed mere style and became displays of grace. And Grace is the pregnant word in the title of a new book by three scholars of Amish culture about the aftermath of the Nickel Mines slaughter, Amish Grace: How Forgiveness Transcended Tragedy. Hours after the shootings, several Amish, acting on their own, walked to the homes of the shooter's widow, parents and parents-in-law to express sympathy and offer forgiveness, by proxy, to the killer. One Amish man held Roberts' sobbing father in his arms, reportedly for as long as an hour, to comfort him. When Roberts was buried, about 30 members of the Amish community attended and mourned. When a local bank set up a fund for the Roberts children, the Amish contributed. The Nickel Mines Accountability Committee, which was organized to handle contributions to the community, gave some of its funds to Marie Roberts. "Over the centuries, the Amish have learned that hostility destroys harmony and that if there are ill feelings among people, you have to confront them," says Herman Bontrager, an insurance executive who serves as spokesman for the accountability committee. "Forgiveness is a very important part of that. It's a decision that you're not going to let your life be controlled by vengeful thoughts, which are destructive for the self and for the community." The Amish tradition of forgiveness is "in their cultural DNA," says Donald B. Kraybill, a coauthor of Amish Grace and a professor of Anabaptist and Pietist studies at Elizabethtown College. "So much of Amish life is about submitting individual will to the will of the group and the will of God," says Steven M. Nolt, a coauthor of Amish Grace and a professor of history at Goshen (Ind.) College. "For them, there's a clear connection between that lifelong process of sacrificing and giving up and what one needs to do in the process of forgiveness -- give up grudges and the right to revenge." In dealing with sorrow, the Amish are helped by distinctive rituals of grieving. As they readily admit, however, they are not saints. They fail and they sin like the rest of us, and they do not want to be put on pedestals. Nor is practicing forgiveness easy. "The Amish people struggle with this as well," says David L. Weaver-Zercher, another Amish Grace coauthor and a professor of American religious history at Messiah College in Grantham. "It's too simple to say the Amish forgive and other people don't, but in these kinds of awful situations, they have a habit they fall back on, and that's the habit of seeking to move beyond grief, pain and anger by offering forgiveness." While researching the book, Kraybill never heard any expression of vengeance toward the killer, he says. "None of the Amish said, 'I hope he rots in hell. I hope God punishes him.' When I asked about that, they said, 'God is the judge. The killer's eternal destiny is in God's hands.' One Amish man said to me: 'I wish for the killer in his eternal destiny the same as I wish for myself,' meaning that he hoped God would be merciful." Some moved beyond forgiveness to what Kraybill calls "remarkable empathy." A father whose daughter was among the slain said to him, "Can you imagine how painful it must be to be the father of a killer like this? That would be 10 times more painful than what I went through." Remarks like this cause Kraybill to marvel at the Amish sense of decency. "Remember, these are people with an eighth-grade education," Kraybill says. "They haven't studied moral ethics or philosophy." But they have studied the Bible, the Amish would reply, and a careful reading of Scripture makes doing the right thing plain. The early expressions of forgiveness were so spontaneous and seemingly reflexive that some accused the Amish of acting robotically. In fact, some pundits criticized the Amish, claiming that instant forgiveness is inauthentic and unhealthy. "The Amish would say, 'Yes, we did begin to forgive within hours, but the forgiveness didn't stop there,' " Kraybill says. "It was an ongoing process. They also had deep grief, pain and anguish. It wasn't like their forgiveness was quick and callous, once and done." That ongoing process built "a bridge of reconciliation," Kraybill says, making it possible for the killer's family to respond in kind. The parents of Charles Roberts have visited the homes of every family with children in the school that day, bringing food and other tokens of friendship, and early this summer they invited all the Amish families over for a picnic. It seems blasphemous even to suggest that the atrocity at Nickel Mines has a silver lining. Nevertheless, some say it has produced some good. "The Amish example brought forgiveness to the forefront of our lives," Hileman said. "We have talked about it more and thought about it more. It made me closely examine my own life and ask, 'Who do I need to forgive? And from whom do I need to ask forgiveness?' " "People are hungry for alternatives to fear and violence," said Bontrager, of the accountability committee. "You can see that by the way the world responded, the generosity and contributions. That is the good that has managed to come out of this." HOW TO HELP: The Anabaptist Foundation, which had been accepting donations to the Nickel Mines School Victims Fund, says on its Web site that the fund, which received more than $1.8 million, is now closed. It says that donors may contribute directly to the Nickel Mines Accountability Committee by writing to: NMAC 1528 Georgetown Rd. Christiana, Pa. 17509 Inquirer staff writer Lini S. Kadaba contributed to this article. ----- To see more of The Philadelphia Inquirer, or to subscribe to the newspaper, go to <a href="http://www.philly.com" target=_top>http://www.philly.com</a>. <a href="http://www.neorunner.com/archive/2007/10/02/Among_the_Amish_a_Grace_That_Endures.php" target="_blank">http://www.neorunner.com/archive/2007/10/02/Among_the_Amish_a_Grace_That_Endures.php</a></blockquote>__________________________________ Some Questions/Observations How would you respond to the Roberts family? In our discussion of religion's effect on society, how do we consider the Amish example? How does this theistic community's response differ from a "secular" community's response? The Amish gain their inspiration from the Bible. Yet, the violence of the Hebrew Bible is not considered part of their way of life. I wonder how they relate to those Hebrew stories. Notice how the Amish looked forward to Judgment Day. Does this attitude of forgiveness create a more peaceful society? . (Message edited by Don on June 06, 2009)

john8verse32 · 06-06-09 12:56 pm

Does this attitude of forgiveness create a more peaceful society? yes.... and if you don't follow their rules, you get <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning" target="_blank">...SHUNNED TO DEATH...OR DISMEMBERMENT...</a>

don · 06-06-09 1:24 pm

and if you don't follow their rules, you get Yes, Shunning can be a harsh practice. This is why they encourage their youth to think carefully before officially joining, isn't it? .

don · 06-11-09 8:08 am

"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Matthew, Mark and Luke tell of Jesus' dialogue with theists of His day, those in authority. I believe this observation has a broader application. Of course, the religious leaders were sinners in need of repentance. Theirs was a self-proclaimed "righteous" status. Perhaps we can understand Jesus' observation in these terms: "I have not come to call those who consider themselves righteous but I have come to call those who admit they are sinners to repentance." The benefits of Jesus' message; the development brought about by the work of the Comforter, cannot be realized without repentance. Repentance cannot take place without a sense of one's need to change. .

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