Is There Any Give in Adventist Doctrine?

maggie · 02-14-09 12:20 pm

I'm willing to entertain the idea that "the sacrifice of Abraham" represents, metaphorically, our willingness to choose the the higher good over our personal good, but unfortunately, the whole thrust of Christianity is that God is, indeed, going to kill billions of people, in the end, so maintaining a metaphorical outlook requires considerable mental muscles, it seems to me. Also, in a mythical sense, animal sacrifices are an "improvement" over human sacrifices, but we are still left with a god who requires blood to be appeased. Is that where we're content to stay in 2009?

george · 02-14-09 1:23 pm

For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.Ps. 51:17 The same sentiment is echoed elsewhere. I don't believe God ever required these sacrifices. The people and their culture did; and they attributed their practices to the demands of God. There were voices that spoke out against it even then.

heipauli · 02-14-09 1:29 pm

Maggie, you asked "is God bipolar". How it so happened that I asked myself that question some 5 hours ago. Maybe the question was provoked by my reading the first half (circa) of Isaiah, 1992 Finnish translation, for the first time. (BTW, the former translation dating from 30's seems to be much more popular here.) This new translation makes one creepy. Admittedly I was much younger, under 10 y, when I met Isaiah for the first time, but still. Theodicy seems to be the sore point of Christianity. Regrettably. And a hint: No glib answers are welcome.

maggie · 02-14-09 1:33 pm

I don't believe God ever required these sacrifices. The people and their culture did; and they attributed their practices to the demands of God. There were voices that spoke out against it even then. I agree. So what, exactly, do we need to be 'saved' from? Glad to see you, Pauli. What about reading new translation of Isaiah makes you feel creepy?

heipauli · 02-14-09 1:43 pm

Maggie, the translation is vivider, more colorful and leaves very little to hide behind enigmatic expressions. How does one compare Technicolor vs. B&W?

maggie · 02-14-09 1:47 pm

...the translation is vivider, more colorful and leaves very little to hide behind enigmatic expressions. I see. That is exactly why I posted the Rembrandt painting. It's hard to hide behind mere theological rhetoric in the face of what that painting literally represents.

maggie · 02-14-09 2:16 pm

The only way the Rembrandt painting, and what it represents from the Bible, makes any spiritual sense to me is to think of it in evolutionary terms: Am I willing to let my whole present vision of God and how He/She operates be sacrificed in order for a greater vision to emerge? That, indeed, is the ultimate sacrifice, and the driver of spiritual evolution. IMO. (Message edited by maggie on February 14, 2009)

maggie · 02-14-09 2:22 pm

So...back to the question in the thread title: Is there any 'give' in Adventist doctrine? Precious little. But the more important and interesting question, I think, is: Is there any 'give' in us as individuals?

john8verse32 · 02-14-09 3:55 pm

the "give" is to understand the ancient hebrew stories as what they are: campfire stories told to Hebrew kids to impress on them about their important place in the world, and their search to please their god and obtain a homeland. And it coincides with historys suggestion that about the same time as Olde Abe, civilization gave up killing first born kids as sacrifice.... all over the East, goats/lambs were substituted. The Hebrews adopted the current story, made it theirs, told and retold it to their kids, finally wrote it down in Babylon where they learned to read and write cuneiform... ...and also adopted and adapted the stories of creation, the flood, the 10 c's....Sargons reed basket... the number 7... the number 12.... and we learned it and believed it all as literal as we were told.

george · 02-14-09 5:06 pm

So what, exactly, do we need to be 'saved' from? Ourselves. Most of us are decent people, I think. We live within the accepted parameters of our culture, which, a happy coincidence, is based on Christian principles. However, there's always someone who is far less self-centered than I; far more giving of their time and efforts; far more giving. I think most of our sins are sins of omission. We could be so much more. Every now and then someone comes along whose life points that out.

elaine · 02-14-09 7:25 pm

Just read the last pericope in Matt. 25 where there is nothing whatsoever about what a person believes that entitles him to Heaven, but in our actions in giving help to others wherever we can. Following that, it makes no difference what you believe, if your actions are following the Golden Rule. Too simple for most folks who want a convoluted tale.

pilgrim99 · 02-14-09 9:37 pm

Many here seem to be underestimating the extreme affront that sin presents to God.. Since the fall, all humans have been born with a sin nature, or the propensity to serve our own desires, rather than God's will. We do not need anyone to teach us to do what is wrong, it comes naturally. Sin will eventually be completely eradicated, and it will not be pleasant. Treating an aggressive cancer will look like a stroll through the park on a warm and sunny spring day, in comparison to God's final eradication of sin. There is a choice to be made, each individual can choose to pay this extreme price personally, and unfortunately, billions will make the wrong choice. Each individual can also choose to accept a freely offered gift, realizing that Jesus has already paid the price. These are the rules of life under the Sun. Feel free to create your own world, with your own rules, if the two available end states do not meet your acceptance. The nice, gentle NT Jesus, that some mistakenly contrast to the mean OT God, spoke about hell more than He did about heaven. The writer of Hebrews, probably a descendant of the goat herders that some mock, had this to say:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume God’s enemies. Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for the Son of God, and profanes the blood of the covenant that made him holy, and insults the Spirit of grace? For we know the one who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-31 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>There is no middle ground, either we are adopted into the family of God, or we are enemies of God. Sin leads to death, always has, always will. Do not be deceived. The free gift came at great cost, and is more valuable than many seem to realize. Was it fair that a sinless and blameless Jesus was put to death by suffocating on a cross, with nails pounded into His extremities? He willingly did this because of His Love for sinners, like you and me, along with the stranger in the supermarket line. His Love demands a personal response. The correct response is driven by Love, realizing what Jesus did, and not out of fear. Sin Kills! but God tells us to choose life, freely!

maggie · 02-14-09 10:03 pm

Ourselves. How did Jesus dying on the Cross save us from ourselves? By example? Wouldn't His perfect, giving life have sufficed? Is there any redemptive meaning in the Cross?

maggie · 02-14-09 10:27 pm

The correct response is driven by Love, realizing what Jesus did, and not out of fear. Love me, or I'll burn you alive. How does that work?

pilgrim99 · 02-14-09 11:57 pm

Maggie, The only other alternative is to pay the price for our sins personally. If you have ever sinned, you are guilty, the penalty is clearly spelled out. Come to think of it, maybe there is another alternative, never ever commit a single sin.

maggie · 02-15-09 12:13 am

There is the alternative to not believe that God will burn people alive who don't love Him. But I respect your right to believe as you see fit.

pilgrim99 · 02-15-09 12:31 am

So God should wink at something that He abhors?

maggie · 02-15-09 12:37 am

Surely somewhere between winking and burning people alive there is a reasonable response.

pilgrim99 · 02-15-09 1:16 am

Love me, or I'll burn you alive. Or, Love me, because although I did not even commit a single sin, in thought, word or deed, I willingly took the penalty for your sins. People spat on me, pressed a hat made of thorns into my skull, then I was suffocated on a cross, people drove nails into my hands and feet, and cut my abdomen open. I did this for you! Why don't you want to accept this gift? Do you really want to face a similar fate, because of your misunderstanding of what sin really is? Do you think that I am wrong, when I tell you that the wages of sin is death? Sin must be eradicated, it leads to death, and I want you to live.

bob_2 · 02-15-09 1:38 am

I just find the conversation so fasinating that one is more worried about what they receive as punishment for sinning than what they receive if they plan to accept the gift of eternal life through, Jesus. Maggie, you type so much worse things than I ever did by putting your name in a header as I did. Your insensitivities have no bounds, and if Ryan were not the young gentleman that he is, he would probably take you to task. Rave on. Bipolar, I think you may be worse than what you accuse God of.

maggie · 02-15-09 1:52 am

I want you to live. Thank you, Devon.

george · 02-15-09 6:59 am

Maggie, I have a four year-old grandson. I love him more than life itself. Most of the time he's a sweet little boy, full of energy and personality. But I have watched how, right from the cradle on, his innocent baby self-centeredness has developed gradually into some interesting connivings. Anyone, bringing up a child has to be constantly on vigil to divert bad behavior and guide them toward empathy and a social awareness. This maze takes us through temper tantrums and even sneaky manipulations. This stuff is in-born. Some of it is necessary -the child's need to form a personal identity and autonomy, but some is quite inexplicable. Without socialization and guidance, we would have little monsters developing all over the place - and we are. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know here, but I think we are all on a collision course with ourselves unless tempered by outside forces. I guess it's not always our choice what those forces are; but at some point they are our choices, though limited. The Christian paradigm offers a base of operation that flows from a loving God who wants us to "be the best that we can be" (to borrow a hackneyed phrase). Jesus was not so much a model for behavior, but a new focus of what a human being was meant to be as a creation in the image of God. As Paul says, Adam gave us a legacy of rebellion, but Christ, the second Adam, gave us a clean slate and a new focus, based not on rebellion but on a response of love for love. Religious dogma has, of course, messed that up as well; but I don't believe that a new "religion" was ever Christ's message. His focus was on our inner dialogues with ourselves - the motivations of our lives. How ever we understand the cross theologically, its impact can't be anything but startling.

maggie · 02-15-09 11:54 am

This stuff is in-born. Some of it is necessary -the child's need to form a personal identity and autonomy, but some is quite inexplicable. Without socialization and guidance, we would have little monsters developing all over the place - and we are. Sirje, I think some (maybe most, or even all) of the things which are currently "inexplicable" in human behavior will eventually be explicated and mitigated as human knowledge advances. For example, studies on life-long brain plasticity are exploding and yielding amazing understanding which turns our 20th-century understanding on its head. The effects of our child-rearing practices are now being studied scientifically, which I find immensely encouraging. It's about time! The effects of food and chemical substances on health and behavior are being deeply explored. The effects of intergenerational familial behavior patterns are being investigated. The effects of electro-magnetic fields on health and behavior are being studied. We're making great advances in understanding and, in some cases, compensating for, or even remediating learning disabilities such as dyslexia, dyscalculia, developmental topographical disorientation, etc. The field of treating shock and trauma is also making great advances, giving hope for a better, more functional life to millions. It is inevitable, IMO, that some, much, or even all, of what we call "sin" is due to (usually) well-meaning, but ignorant and misguided "socialization and guidance." I am comfortable calling our advances in treating ourselves and our children in ways that support our development and healing the work of the Cross in human life. Jesus said He came to give life more abundant. I'm also comfortable calling it humanism. Jesus was nothing, if not a humanist, IMO. I'm also comfortable calling our human-induced physical, social and emotional distortions "sin." I'm also comfortable postulating negative spirits playing a part in human misery. But I think the part that belief in a violent God, who must resort to violence as a Final Solution, will sooner or later be physically demonstrated to cause brain damage and dysfunction, and social chaos. All that said, we must rely completely on the grace of God to avert the human-created Perfect Storm that is on the horizon. I hope we will pull together and do it. Just my opinion. Others have every right to their own opinions, of course.

george · 02-15-09 1:04 pm

All that said, we must rely completely on the grace of God to avert the human-created Perfect Storm that is on the horizon. I hope we will pull together and do it. Yes, and the dark clouds are gathering as we speak. I do agree that human behavior and the things we call "sin" and the things we call "good" all have biochemical reasons, and if not that, then genetic influences and a host of other natural reasons. The problem is that this is such a maze that when all the data is in, we'll have too much information and not know what to do with it. At the same time, the simplistic notion that everybody has a choice to "sin" or not, and it's just a simple matter of self-control is nonsense. I believe that all human endeavors to fix the planet - economically, physically, politically, and in every other way are going to come to nothing; and when all avenues have proven a failure, it is then that some sort of intervention might be on the way. If God is "good", then we have nothing to worry about. I believe His character is best understood by "normal" parental instincts, if the Jesus' words are to be accepted. The fact that he calls God, FATHER and even ABBA gives us a clue to His relationship with us. And yes. there are horrible parents out there, but there are also good ones. I happened to have been blessed by good parents, who instinctively loved me and gave me the freedom of loving in return. If this love is only a fraction of God's love (as explained by Jesus) then I have nothing to worry about fires that burn to a crisp. Those concepts, even (and especially) found in the Bible are aberrations of cultural influences if Christ's life and words are normative. On the other hand, if God is all about appeasement then it's all hopeless anyway. I think it might be beneficial to dig out what the character of God is like, based on the life and teachings of Jesus instead of focusing on the OT concept of a waring God.

maggie · 02-15-09 1:15 pm

On the other hand, if God is all about appeasement then it's all hopeless anyway. Well, that's my conclusion. The situation would be considerably simplified if Jesus, Himself, did not speak so much about hell. I think it might be beneficial to dig out what the character of God is like, based on the life and teachings of Jesus instead of focusing on the OT concept of a waring God. I think attempts at separating Jesus from the violent Jehovah of the OT are going to prove futile. These operations are going to have to be individual and internal, IMO. ...good parents, who instinctively loved me and gave me the freedom of loving in return.... The good news is that this "natural affection" can now be studied scientifically. I find this immensely encouraging, as I think the Book of Nature has much to teach us that we've only started to learn.

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