Is There Any Give in Adventist Doctrine?

maggie · 02-15-09 1:22 pm

I believe that all human endeavors to fix the planet - economically, physically, politically, and in every other way are going to come to nothing; and when all avenues have proven a failure, it is then that some sort of intervention might be on the way. I think a <a href="http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Deux+ex+machina" target="_blank">Deus ex machina</a> denouement is inherently unsatisfying. So I find a glimmer of light in the SDA intuition that a Remnant of humanity will find a way to Righteousness by Faith. I just take it farther, I guess.

george · 02-15-09 3:25 pm

So I find a glimmer of light in the SDA intuition that a Remnant of humanity will find a way to Righteousness by Faith. Maggie, You've said this before. What exactly do you mean? It would ber nice to have that glimmer of hope.

maggie · 02-15-09 4:03 pm

What exactly do you mean? It would be nice to have that glimmer of hope. I suppose this thread is actually a good place to talk about that, or rather, let it unfold (I hope). To start that unfoldment, I hope you'll take time to listen to David Wilcox sing a song that means a lot to me. Show the Way <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za5AH7qVlqE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za5AH7qVlqE</a> Here are the lyrics: <hr width=75% size=2> <center>Show the Way You say you see no hope, you say you see no reason We should dream that the world would ever change You're saying love is foolish to believe 'Cause there'll always be some crazy with an Army or a Knife To wake you from your day dream, put the fear back in your life... Look, if someone wrote a play just to glorify What's stronger than hate, would they not arrange the stage To look as if the hero came too late - he's almost in defeat It's looking like the Evil side will win, so on the Edge Of every seat, from the moment that the whole thing begins It is... Love who mixed the mortar And it's Love who stacked these stones And it's Love who made the stage here Although it looks like we're alone In this scene set in shadows Like the night is here to stay There is evil cast around us But it's Love that wrote the play... For in this darkness Love can show the way Show the Way So now the stage is set. Feel you own heart beating In your chest. This life's not over yet. so we get up on our feet and do our best. We play against the Fear. We play against the reasons not to try We're playing for the tears burning in the happy angel's eyes For it's... Love who mixed the mortar And it's Love who stacked these stones And it's Love who made the stage here Although it looks like we're alone In this scene set in shadows Like the night is here to stay There is evil cast around us But it's Love that wrote the play... For in this darkness Love can show the way Show the Way....</center> <hr width=75% size=2> Where else but here...show the Way....

george · 02-15-09 5:13 pm

Yeah, Maggie. It would be good to focus on the solutions now that we have all the problems out on the table. I'm guessing it's about the "remnant" who can still sing that song and mean it. But I think that remnant won't even know that that's who they are. Once you become aware of your own positives the thing starts to unravel. I guess I'm longing for the innocence.

neal · 02-15-09 5:18 pm

I think attempts at separating Jesus from the violent Jehovah of the OT are going to prove futile. Maggie... It WILL be futile to separate them because Jesus IS Jehovah. The Israelites were given to Jehovah (Yahweh) to inhabit Canaan. Canaan, with a specific boundary of land, was Jehovah's inheritance from El Elyon. David lamented that, when in exile outside the boundary of Canaan, he was outside of Jehovah's territory and unable to raise up a cult of Yahweh (1 Samuel?). Amos speaks of the territory of Jehovah; Jeremiah (2&16) speaks of the land as the inheritance of Jehovah. In 2 Kings Naaman even goes so far as to take dirt with him from Canaan so he can worship Jehovah. Jonah, whether you believe the tale or not, has him attempting to flee from Jehovah's territory. This land, Canaan, Jehovah vomited out people that worship gods other than Himself. It defiled His inheritance. The writers in the NT ALWAYS used El Elyon (God Most High) when writing about God or Jesus' Father. Don could give you a better rundown on this than I can I am certain. So, yes, it is futile to separate the evil deeds of Jehovah from Jesus for they are one and the same!

maggie · 02-15-09 5:22 pm

It's not theoretical of theological. As the song says, Feel your own heart beating in your chest.... It's also not "declarative," as in, "the problems are all on the table, now let's find a solution." It's more like a "Magic Eye" picture which takes shape before your mind's eye, while your ordinary eyesight forever misses it. Follow the instructions here & tell me what you see (if you want to): <a href="http://www.magiceye.com/faq_example.htm" target="_blank">http://www.magiceye.com/faq_example.htm</a> There's just a certain way of 'seeing' that reveals things that aren't immediately apparent, but are there all along.

maggie · 02-15-09 5:22 pm

So, yes, it is futile to separate the evil deeds of Jehovah from Jesus for they are one and the same! No argument here.

maggie · 02-15-09 5:48 pm

I guess I'm longing for the innocence. At the level of heart attunement with God, all is innocence. That is available at every moment to all of us. Feel your own heart beating in your chest....

bob_2 · 02-15-09 5:54 pm

Look all, go she the movie Taken with Liam Neesom, about his daughter taking what appears to be a rather innocent trip to France. Neesom, a retired security agent has a bad feel, but his ex and his daughter pressure him, only to see his daughter abducted into the sex trade. He gets on the trail and resolves the issue which is the rest of the movie which gets a little messy but end happily for Neesom and his relationship with his daughter. There is evil in the world. To be naive about that, and blame God, is, well naive. To make sure your relationship is right with Jesus your heavenly father, will make your ending happy also. To blame it on the OT depiction of God is naive also. People dealt with things differently, as did Calvin and Luther, susequently Hitler an Musalini. We can dwell on the bad or realize there is a way out. We can blame God for all our bad, but it was our ancesters that sinned and made it rough for us. Until the world is purged of sin, ugly situations will contine, but to dwell on that, makes one look as if they have something that isn't right that they fear is not good enought for a Savior who died for us. It really is quite morbid, we should rejoice in the plan to save the righteous, unless we plan to be unrighteous!!!!

george · 02-15-09 6:03 pm

Maggie, My husband is an optometrist and so I've seen many of these before - super neat. Yes, I get it's personal. It would be good, though, to look for the positives for a change.

maggie · 02-15-09 6:34 pm

It would be good, though, to look for the positives for a change. I'm willing to be the bad guy to demonstrate, at length, that believing that God will burn billions of people alive affects people at a physiological level in such a way that it makes it impossible to return to innocence, and for the world to heal, until that belief system is dealt with. The Second Coming is inextricably enmeshed with the burning alive of billions of people, but in such a way that it's a taboo topic. Someone (hopefully many), it seems to me, needs to wade in an make it so explicit that that's what we're talking about that the taboo gets broken. Why should it be offensive to say out loud what the whole Christian economy is based on? It's a huge, huge taboo. People know not to tell me straight-up that I'm going to hell now, but they still talk about hoping I have "a happy ending," etc., i.e., that I don't get burned alive. As long as that happens, I'm going to point out what's really being said: that God's gonna burn me alive if I don't talk right. This the central issue of the whole Christian economy, and it's a huge taboo. So, yeah, bad guy at your service, relentlessly pointing out the elephant in the living room. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/553.jpg" alt="God's gonna burn billions"> Feel free, of course, to scroll on by--I understand, really I do!

john8verse32 · 02-15-09 6:47 pm

are the Chi-Coms any more humane than the Hebrew story of God, which read literally, and according to what many of us were taught, seems to mean that He is going to burn millions of people alive? at least the Chi-Coms put their victims to sleep mercifully.... on a nice, air conditioned luxury bus... <a href="http://www.switched.com/2009/02/14/chinese-execution-bus-a-reality/" target=_top>http://www.switched.com/2009/02/14/chinese-execution-bus-a-reality/</a> I wonder if we could get God to consider lethal injection instead of <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/556.gif" alt="">

maggie · 02-15-09 8:05 pm

...and not killing people TWICE???

elaine · 02-15-09 8:33 pm

It can't be ignored: What Maggie has been saying is all too true. For most of Christianity's history, the fear of Hell was drummed into people constantly and consistently. It was the only way to try to keep people in line, and because it was usually quite effective, it worked--but from fear. Then, along came a few Christians who tried to explain that yes, that Yahweh was really Jesus (albeit with a different name) and he was kind and loving, while Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures brought sin into the world, and made favorites of a small rag-tag segment of the Middle East who began to call themselves the "Chosen Ones" and that God had given them Palestine for themselves and that they were to drive out all the other inhabitants as it now belonged to them, not the Canaanites. Later, when the kingdoms split, Judea, which occupied the stony, unproductive area of southern Palestine, were taken captive by the Persians, they were introduced to Zororastrianism with Heaven and Hell, new concepts not previously part of their culture, and they eagerly embraced these ideas of a heavenly afterlife, and Hell were the "bad guys" went. Everything was light and dark; good and evil, there was no gray areas and one either went to Heaven or Hell at death. There is no mention of an afterlife in the early Hebrew Bible and it only is mentioned after the Babylonian Exiles which was the final evolution of their religious belief. Prior to that, they worship other gods, and Jehovah at times, but very inconsistently. That's more than you asked for but there it is.

maggie · 02-15-09 8:33 pm

See, Sirje, I'm glad you said what you said about my being negative - brings up some interesting thoughts to me. I'm one of the only ones around here who believes in God, but does NOT believe God is going to burn billions of people alive. IOW, I do NOT believe God is going to torture, torment or otherwise ill-treat people. Ever. And when I point out that this burning-alive belief is the foundation of the whole Christian economy, I am being negative, whereas when people tell me, directly or indirectly, that I am going to be burned alive by God, presumably that is not negative? (No offense taken, ever.) And when you asked me to explain myself because it would be nice to have <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=5&post=1825#POST1825" target="_blank">a glimmer of hope</a>, my answer, of necessity, involved a complete reframing of the Christian economy so as to NOT base it on the burning-of-billions belief, you apparently found that uncomfortable, which is fine, of course, and I can understand it. Such is the power of taboo, perhaps? I just want to encourage you, but not press you, to bite the bullet about this, though, Sirje, reminding you that you said: ...if God is all about appeasement then it's all hopeless anyway. The reason billions will burn, in popular belief, is that the wrath of God must be appeased, by being poured out without mixture. You and I agree that appeasement is a hopeless scenario, yielding a heaven not worthy of the name, at least to us. A glimmer of hope can shine through when the dark cloud of the burning of billions dissipates. Presently, we say we "love His appearing," but if we can't even allow the words to be spoken about what that will entail, I have to question how much His appearing is really sought. But no need to read or respond to what I say if you'd prefer not to, of course.

maggie · 02-15-09 8:38 pm

Elaine & John, thanks for wading in. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

elaine · 02-15-09 8:43 pm

It has always been incomprehensible to try to picture us standing on the walls of the New Jerusalem, looking out and seeing the burning of millions of sinners, all were so terribly wicked that, though they once died and were buried, they had to be resurrected for our "entertainment" and burned and reduced to ashes. THEN, and only then, could we be certain that sin would never arise again. Now, tell me, how one can believe that is demonstrating "God's Love"?

bob_2 · 02-15-09 11:23 pm

Maggie, you's so upset, I think you should write another one of your letter to Ryan for help, seem he's more powerful than God, in your situation. Peace by not talking about punishment of the wicked. The first group got drowned, the next collect group, Sodom and Gomorrah got fire, and now you want assurance it won't be fire when the book that talks about glorious salvation says the punishment to purge sin is going to be fire. You can elaborate, and call it torture, but me thinks, you are not willing to ask forgiveness for something so you can be thinking about reward, rather than punishment. Someone need to talk straight to you, Elaine ain't, Neal's an atheist, and Sirje is trying to be compassionate. Repent, and accept Jesus, let him, wiser then us, work out how he purges sin. There's another little girl missing and whatever God has instore for those abductors and molestors is too good as far as I'm concerned. YOu ought to trot over <a href="http://www.HevenlySanctuary.com" target=_top>www.HevenlySanctuary.com</a> to hear God is ONLY love if that is what will sooth you.

maggie · 02-16-09 12:24 am

Thanks for your concern, Bob.

don · 02-16-09 1:31 am

Maggie, You have declared your belief in God but not in the teaching that God will destroy sinners. How do you visualize the end of the age? Will the universe end up in sinless harmony? If so, how? If not, what is in store for humanity? .

maggie · 02-16-09 1:55 am

Don, I can only hint at the process I intuit, as it is an incarnational process, not a mental, theoretical, theological process. <table border=1><tr><td> </TD></TR><TR><TD>International Standard Version (©2008)</TD><TD>Now I am rejoicing while suffering for you as I complete in my flesh whatever remains of the Messiah's sufferings on behalf of his body, which is the church. </TD></TR><TR><TD>New American Standard Bible (©1995)</TD><TD>Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. </TD></TR><TR><TD>GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)</TD><TD>I am happy to suffer for you now. In my body I am completing whatever remains of Christ's sufferings. I am doing this on behalf of his body, the church. </TD></TR><TR><TD>King James Bible</TD><TD>Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: </TD></TR><TR><TD>American King James Version</TD><TD>Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: </TD></TR><TR><TD>American Standard Version</TD><TD>Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church; </TD></TR><TR><TD>Bible in Basic English</TD><TD>Now I have joy in my pain because of you, and in my flesh I undergo whatever is still needed to make the sorrows of Christ complete, for the salvation of his body, the church; </TD></TR><TR><TD>Douay-Rheims Bible</TD><TD>Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: </TD></TR><TR><TD>Darby Bible Translation</TD><TD>Now, I rejoice in sufferings for you, and I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly; </TD></TR><TR><TD>English Revised Version</TD><TD>Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church; </TD></TR><TR><TD>Webster's Bible Translation</TD><TD>Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: </TD></TR><TR><TD>Weymouth New Testament</TD><TD>Now I can find joy amid my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my own person whatever is lacking in Christ's afflictions on behalf of His Body, the Church. </TD></TR><TR><TD>World English Bible</TD><TD>Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the assembly; </TD></TR><TR><TD>Young's Literal Translation</TD><TD>I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly</td></tr></table> As time unfolds, I might be able to flesh this out more for you. In short, I see light in the SDA intuition about the Investigative Judgment, and the two-part Atonement, in that the spiritually mature will follow on to know the Lord, being baptized even unto His death for the world, and partaking of the afflictions of Christ in their own bodies for the world. God wills that none shall perish, but that all should have eternal life. When God's will becomes our will, we shall know of the Doctrine. <hr width=75% size=2> <center>My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you....</center> <hr width=75% size=2> We are all connected.

don · 02-16-09 4:44 am

Obviously, the Bible serves as the source of your belief on this. Your thoughts seem to be going this direction:<blockquote>Jesus bore our griefs. We are to bear the griefs of those we care about as a way to take part with him. Jesus took on the suffering servant, the personification of all humanity. We are to take up our cross. If Jesus represents us all. If we are his body. Then our sufferings happen to his body. Paul felt that his sufferings for the church was part of the suffering of Christ for the church. He speaks as though there is a plan for the suffering of the body of Christ beyond his death on the cross.</blockquote>Paul also says that he is willing to give up eternal life so his fellow Jews can be saved. When we can get to that point then maybe we can begin to understand how God is not willing that any should perish. Yet, the whole problem of sin seems to have arisen from God granting us free choice. So the Love of God meets the Free Choice of His creatures. Yet, some choices cause death. They don't all bring into eternal life. Then, there are some choices that bring pain to others. Kind of like the reverse of that verse you have presented. Paul (we) takes part in the suffering of Christ for the church. Christ took on the suffering for the whole world while the whole world puts the suffering onto the weak and vulnerable. Christ stands between the cruelty of the world and the destiny of the weak and vulnerable. Are there any of God's creatures who have chosen to deal out unmitigated evil? How does God deal with them? What is fair? What is just? .

maggie · 02-16-09 10:18 am

Obviously, the Bible serves as the source of your belief on this. This isn't a religious belief of mine. I don't think I have religious beliefs anymore. I have expressed this in Christian terms, but I think anyone, in any religion, or no religion, could live and feel their way into this position. What you say is logical and theological. I can't refute your logic or your theology, Don. Love transcends logic and theology. Feel your own heart beating in your chest....

maggie · 02-16-09 10:33 am

Are there any of God's creatures who have chosen to deal out unmitigated evil? That assumes that I stand in a position separated from the rest of the human race. I'm not making the assumption that I am disconnected from the whole human race. How does God deal with them? What is fair? What is just? This makes the assumption that God stands in a position separated from the human race. I'm not making the assumption that God is separated from the human race, or that the human race consists of atomized bits.

maggie · 02-16-09 10:57 am

Don, do you think Jesus had religious beliefs?

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