Is There Any Give in Adventist Doctrine?

maggie · 02-19-09 9:44 pm

Neal, have you watched this? The Four Horsemen: Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyUz2XLp1E" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyUz2XLp1E</a> Sam Harris talks about still using words like "spiritual" and "mystical." Dawkins doesn't disagree with him. (See part 2.)

maggie · 02-19-09 9:45 pm

Hitchens specifies that we separate the "numinous" from the "supernatural." Any problems with that?

neal · 02-19-09 10:00 pm

I have not watched the video. When I have some time this weekend I will make a point of it. Spiritual and mystical are great emotions and activities, IMO. What I believe to be intellectual dishonesty is to take a story, parts of which are known to be false, and claim that the falsehoods don't matter in determining the truth or falsehood of the conclusion. I have said many times that the capital G God has been disproven. Bob & Ron still want to hold onto parts of the story that they like such as God saving them to another life when the previous claimed actions of God, such as creating all the species of life 6000 years ago, are known falsehoods. GOD is a PACKAGE. The Christian God comes as a package with claims of actions past, present, and future. When you get into specifics Bob falls back on the 'transcendent' cop-out while Ron feels the details are not meaningful whether true or false. If the flood did not happen, Jesus is a liar. The flood did not happen. etc. Spiritual is not religion. Religion is not necessarily spiritual. God, and the culture of God followers, is a tribal, us vs them mentality which seems to be able to be changed over time as the falsehoods are exposed. They just claim that it really is not meaningful. The Bible wasn't a science book. God had to speak to them in ways they could understand. We will have to ask God for the answers. Etc. Its not about individually deciding what is truth but defending what your ancestors believed to be truth.

neal · 02-19-09 10:01 pm

Any problems with that? No. BTW, Hitchens got beat up in Beirut the other day. He should walk around with a bodyguard.

bob_2 · 02-19-09 11:36 pm

My point there is no middle ground with an Atheist. God's existence has no more been disproved than Neal Walls in Denver.

neal · 02-19-09 11:48 pm

God's existence has no more been disproved than Neal Walls in Denver. Who said that it had been?? The God that is claimed to have created the earth 6000 years ago and then destroyed it 4500 years ago in a flood HAS BEEN DISPROVED. If there is a god it is not the one talked about in the goat herder's book. THAT God spent the 2nd day building a dome over the flat earth and putting an ocean in the sky to make it blue. That God is a false god. You may as well believe the Native American Coyote story being the Creator God.

bob_2 · 02-20-09 12:19 am

So says you, so reads you, so interprets you. Why does an atheist like you get such joy in this nonsense. Things slow out your way???

john8verse32 · 02-20-09 12:03 pm

If the flood did not happen, Jesus is a liar. weeeel..... how about, instead, "Jesus, if/as a real person, and a product of his day, can be understood to having referred to the stories believed in his day"...... just like EGW seems to have done with amalgamation and coal fired volcanoes. Even Newton was a believer, as were most of the scientists who founded our present search for knowledge. It has taken hundreds of years of "science" and intellectual progress (too often opposed by those who choose to live in the ancient past) to put us in a position to start to understand things...differently than our ancestors did, and to realize that there is NO DOME over the earth with a blue ocean over that. The flood did not happen.... it did not happen the way described in the Hebrew myth.... <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/621.jpg" alt=""> but Cosquers Cave shows that it DID HAPPEN!!! <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/622.jpg" alt=""> all over the world... inspiring the tales of floods all over the world. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/623.jpg" alt=""> and its either Al Bores or Melankovitch's fault for causing global warming starting 20,000 yrs ago. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/624.jpg" alt=""> and whether or not we are forced to change (diminish) our lifestyles by the religious proponents of "global warming change", we may not have reached the cyclical high temps shown 130,000 yrs ago....

maggie · 02-20-09 7:29 pm

PS: re The Four Horsemen: Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyUz2XLp1E" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyUz2XLp1E</a> I really enjoyed this 2-hour informal discussion between these men - it really gives you a peek into their minds that you might not get from their writing and speeches. For instance, I would have never guessed that Dawkins says grace and that Dennett and family thoroughly enjoy getting together and singing Christian Christmas carols at Christmas time. Fascinating.

neal · 02-21-09 11:29 am

The Four Horsemen: Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens Maggie Thanks for the link to that series of videos. I have, so far, watched the first 4 parts and am greatly enjoying their conversation. I will try to finish it this weekend. I have not read any of Dennett's books. I am reading Unweaving The Rainbow (along with 3 other books by other authors) right now. I had previously read Dawkins' book The God Delusion. I have read both of Sam's books and Hitchens' God Is Not Great. Plus, as you know, I enjoyed attending a debate with Hitchens last month in Boulder. I read Michael Savage all the way across to Noam Chomsky so I do appreciate contemplating a range of ideas. As Pauli has so kindly pointed out, ignorance is not bliss! I like this adage: "The more I learn the less I KNOW". <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0> ...

roca · 02-21-09 9:38 pm

Devon Wrote: Ron, How do you define a fundamentalist, and why would they be irritated? Are you referring to SDA fundamentalists? or Evangelical fundamentalists? A fundamentalist either SDA or Evangelical takes a very literal view of the Bible, so far as to say it is infallible and inerrant. They are very irritated with anyone who admits the Bible has errors that it has contradictions or that some Bible author said something that is not true. Not to mention how upset they get if you don't believe the Creation story does not have to be taken literally or that the flood did not really cover the whole globe. fundamentalism also only accepts one atonement theory that being penal/substitution nothing else can even be considered. Fundamentalism also hates the idea of higher criticism. Basically fundamentalism dislikes anything modern so it is pretty easy to irritate them.

bob_2 · 02-21-09 11:46 pm

Did you make that up all on your own, or have a dictionary of some sort to help you with that discription?? <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0>

pilgrim99 · 02-22-09 10:07 am

Ron, Thanks for responding and sharing your opinion.

neal · 02-22-09 9:46 pm

Maggie I was able to finish the youtube series with Hitchens, et al. A great conversation between great minds/thinkers. Thanks again for the link. I am looking forward to the results of the research Harris is working on. Could be very enlightening. One point that Dennett made about the dissemination of truth not necessarily being a good idea in all cases... I personally feel that there is a difference in withholding the sequencing of a deadly virus and being silent when a known falsehood is propagated by dogmatists. I am firmly in line with the opinion of Dawkins and Hitchens on that score. They spoke about Victor Stenger's book at length. I went to a small gathering last summer where he spoke about various topics. I like his style and thought processes very much. He lives in Boulder and shows up from time to time at public events in town. If you get a chance read his God: A Failed Hypothesis. Later....

maggie · 02-22-09 9:56 pm

Glad you liked, Neal. The Hitchens book was given to me by an atheist who couldn't stomach it. He said that he, himself, had a big ego, and he didn't like competition from someone with a bigger ego. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

maggie · 02-22-09 9:57 pm

I didn't know Stenger lives in Boulder - thanks for the tips.

bob_2 · 02-22-09 10:47 pm

Mutual Admiration Society for Athiestic literature on a Christian forum, I think I've seen it all. Such a contribution to how one is Saved. Mr. Hitchens any words for the crowd gathered??? Mr. Hitchens: This is it folks, enjoy it while you can, because it goes down hill from here!!!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/crazy.gif" border=0>

maggie · 02-22-09 10:48 pm

Saved from what, Bob?

bob_2 · 02-22-09 10:53 pm

Fire, Maggie!!!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0> You are too easy to "torment" who needs a "Lake of Fire". <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/rofl.gif" border=0> Just kidding, you are too easy to get going, just too easy!!!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/kiss.gif" border=0>

maggie · 02-22-09 11:01 pm

That's right, fire. Your god plans to burn people with fire, preparatory to killing them a second time. That's three deaths altogether. So three deaths aren't enough, he has to torture them with fire too? Hard to tell that god from the devil.

bob_2 · 02-22-09 11:08 pm

Shake your fist at God, Maggie. It won't help!!! Studying properly and not hanging with Neal might help. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/kiss.gif" border=0> Neal's got a god for all occasions, even believes that God copied stuff from those other gods.

maggie · 02-22-09 11:13 pm

Shake your fist at God, Maggie. You don't understand. I don't believe in a god that burns people alive. How can one shake a fist at something one doesn't believe exists? There are lots of books that show how Bible stories are derived from earlier stories.

bob_2 · 02-22-09 11:16 pm

So you do admit you have soaked up the Neal stories and theories, that is your problem, stay away from Atheism and the like. It'll mess your mind, up Maggie, dear!!!!

maggie · 02-22-09 11:21 pm

Words fail me.

bob_2 · 02-22-09 11:22 pm

Maggie, do you believe in a God who drowns people alive, like in a Flood. If you don't, then we're not talking using the same Bible, dear. Our minds will never meet. Your problem, you want to sensationalize the words, like Obama, crisis, crisis, crisis. Select your words more carefully so you don't upset yourself and let God be God and you be one of His children. Of course you can choose otherwise if you choose to create a god in your own image!!!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0>

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