The Messiness of History

elaine · 05-26-09 10:05 pm

If by founder, we mean those who actually set up structures to deal with the faithful, then the apostles in Jerusalem were founders. If by founder, we mean the one who spread Christianity far and wide and appointed local leadership in various cities and defined the nature of the Gospel in theological terms, then Paul was founder. I thought that was how I explained it. All the apostles mentioned in the church in both Jerusalem and Antioch played a part, but it was Paul who spread Christianity to the Gentiles, and it was the Gentiles who maintained and became the main core of the church. After 70, and the destruction of the temple. Do you find a history of Jewish Christians that survived and left a record? While there were Christian Jews in Rome and likely many other cities, it eventually became composed of Gentiles, or else the Jews merged and lost their unique practices, as we have no record of Jewish Christians still maintaining all their ceremonies and rituals. I don't recall claiming exclusivity for Paul, but he was a recognized leader of the church to the Gentiles wasn't he?

elaine · 05-26-09 10:21 pm

The Jewish Christian movement: The failure of the Bar Kochba revolt (132 - 135 CE) was devastating for the Jewish people, including the Jewish Christians. Any Jews who remained in Palestine in 135 CE were killed, enslaved or permanently driven from the land. The Jewish Christian movement had a brief resurgence during the 2nd century CE, and then disappeared from the pages of history.

pilgrim99 · 05-27-09 8:06 pm

The Jewish Christian (Messianic Judaism) is alive and well. I have a close friend who worships in a Messianic fellowship. I have also subscribed to the bi monthly journal published by <a href="http://www.cjfm.org" target=_top>CJF Ministries.</a> They generally provide good food for thought on many issues. The <a href="http://www.iamcs.org" target=_top>International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues</a> site has a directory of local congregations. Shalom

elaine · 05-27-09 8:31 pm

Yes, there are Messianic Jews, but that is a recent movement. There was no continuity from the first century on as the Christian church. What are the dates of origination of Messianic Judaism?

pilgrim99 · 05-27-09 8:42 pm

What are the dates of origination of Messianic Judaism? Seems to me that most of the NT was written by Messianic Jews.

don · 05-27-09 9:26 pm

The Jewish Christian movement had a brief resurgence during the 2nd century CE, and then disappeared from the pages of history. I have presented evidence, from the canons of the various councils, that the organized church systematically denied those who behaved like Jews their place within Christianity. The Christian church became anti-semitic and Judaism grew to be anti-Christian. As I understand it, the disappearance of "accepted" Christian Jews was caused by both Judaism and Christianity. .

elaine · 05-27-09 10:12 pm

Perhaps I missed that evidence, would you mind showing the links again? Regardless of the reasons, the Jewish-Christians are lost to history. Anti-semitism was easily seen in some of the Gospels where the Jews were blamed for the crucifixion. So, anti-semitism originated with Christians.

pilgrim99 · 05-27-09 10:53 pm

Elaine, from my read of the Gospels (written mostly by Jewish writers) Jews and Gentiles were responsible for the crucifixion. John, a Jew, shares the perspective of Jesus<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:This is why the Father loves me – because I lay down my life, so that I may take it back again. No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down of my own free will. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it back again. This commandment I received from my Father.” John 10:17-18 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

elaine · 05-27-09 11:53 pm

The Gospel writers do not mention any Gentiles, other than the Romans, that were involved in the crucifixion. All four Gospels state that the chief priests cried for his crucifixion and said "His blood be on us and our children." John's Gospel was written in the last decade of the first century, at least two generations after the crucifixion.

pilgrim99 · 05-28-09 12:00 am

How about the trial judges? Is John a liar? (Message edited by pilgrim99 on May 28, 2009)

don · 05-28-09 1:18 am

Perhaps I missed that evidence, would you mind showing the links again? <a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=14&post=5141#POST5141" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=14&post=5141#POST5141</a> Regardless of the reasons, the Jewish-Christians are lost to history. The fact that the Church Councils addressed Judaizers is historical evidence about Jewish-Christians. Judaizers are also mentioned in the writings of the Church "Fathers". Notice what Irenaeus (180),<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:2. Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God. <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103126.htm" target="_blank">Irenaeus (180) Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 26)</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis (375) includes the Ebionites in its list of heresies. .

elaine · 05-28-09 2:37 pm

How about the trial judges? It was under Roman rule that Judea was allowed some jurisdiction, but wasn't it Pilate who sentenced him? And Pilate was an apointee of Herod. Don, there were Jewish sects in the second century, but eventually they were lost to history. By repudiating Paul, and following only Matthew, could they truly be called Christians? It appears they were more Jewish than Christian. Where is there evidence of Jewish/Christians flourishing in the 5th or 6th centuries?

pilgrim99 · 05-28-09 4:15 pm

Did Pilate have the authority to stop a sham trial? Both Jews and Gentiles were responsible, IMHO.

elaine · 05-28-09 6:01 pm

Both Jews and Gentiles were responsible." But most of the Gospel writers blamed the Jews. We can only know what they reported, and no one should rely on its trutfulness as expected in today's courts of law.

neal · 05-29-09 8:54 am

Both Jews and Gentiles were responsible, IMHO. Somebody had to kill him. Right? Otherwise, how could it be a sacrifice. Jews should be applauded. Gentiles should be applauded for the heroic act of being the only ones in history to actually kill a god. I don't understand how christians rejoice in the crucifixion and resurrection, then turn around and revile the jews, sending them to the gas chamber.

elaine · 05-29-09 11:43 am

If one believes the bible account, those who crucified Jesus were fulfilling the prophecies and without that, there could be no salvation. So, we should thank those executioners for giving us the gift of salvation?

neal · 05-29-09 12:26 pm

. Exactly correct Elaine. .

pilgrim99 · 05-29-09 3:44 pm

Elaine and Neal, Your responses were predictable, we all act based on who we are and what we believe. Although you are not bible believers, there are still some of us left. You mock the freely offered gift of Salvation, why and to what end? I don't go to Jehovah Witness, Christian Scientist, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, pastafarian or Mormon sites and mock their beliefs, why do you spend time at a Christian site mocking Christian beliefs? Those who believe the bible and spend time in study understand the plan of Salvation and gratefully accept that God Himself paid the penalty for sin. His Salvation is offered to ALL.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God’s glory. Not only this, but we also rejoice in sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance, character, and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. (For rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person perhaps someone might possibly dare to die.) But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life? Not only this, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received this reconciliation. Romans 5:1-11 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Jesus willingly laid down His life for sinners like me. I refuse to reject a freely offered gift that is more precious than anything that any human can buy or earn. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back in its place! For all who take hold of the sword will die by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot call on my Father, and that he would send me more than twelve legions of angels right now? How then would the scriptures that say it must happen this way be fulfilled?” Matthew 26:52-55 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:This is why the Father loves me – because I lay down my life, so that I may take it back again. No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down of my own free will. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it back again. This commandment I received from my Father.” John 10:17-18 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will thwart the cleverness of the intelligent.” 1 Corinthians 1:18-19 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Personally, I am in need of a Savior, my sins are great. I pray that you and everyone comes to the same point of realization, only then can you respond in love. If we don't see ourselves as condemned sinners, God's offer of Salvation has no value to us. Who knows, maybe that's the reason behind the mocking.

don · 05-29-09 3:58 pm

Fate and Free Will At the last supper, Jesus said,<blockquote>"Do you realize that the hand of the one who is betraying me is at this moment on this table? It's true that the Son of Man is going down a path already marked out—no surprises there. But for the one who turns him in, turns traitor to the Son of Man, this is doomsday." Luke 22:21-22 </blockquote>Note, that the inevitability of Jesus' betrayal did not remove the guilt of the betrayer. The Bible writers seemed to be able to view fate and free will at the same time. .

pilgrim99 · 05-29-09 4:13 pm

Someone who once thought that they merited Salvation based on their heritage and law keeping, found that he was a sinner, when he recognized covetousness, of all things, in his heart shared this:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: The Message of Reconciliation Therefore, because we know the fear of the Lord, we try to persuade people, but we are well known to God, and I hope we are well known to your consciences too. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to be proud of us, so that you may be able to answer those who take pride in outward appearance and not in what is in the heart. For if we are out of our minds, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, since we have concluded this, that Christ died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised. So then from now on we acknowledge no one from an outward human point of view. Even though we have known Christ from such a human point of view, now we do not know him in that way any longer. So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away – look, what is new has come! And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation. In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation. Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His plea through us. We plead with you on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God!” God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:11-21 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I think that this message is worth everyone's consideration. The writer used to look for Christians to kill, (not just mock) until his eyes were opened. Up to that point, he was incapable of understanding. All who have come to believe and place their trust in Christ share this in common. Many of us often wonder what took us so long?

john8verse32 · 05-29-09 4:43 pm

...the inevitability of Jesus' betrayal did not remove the guilt of the betrayer. The Bible writers seemed to be able to view fate and free will at the same time were they confused? or deliberately sitting on the fence? while taking lithium? Doesn't this exemplify the problem of "issues", which are difficult to resolve? the fact that the supposedly innerrant scriptures are so replete with contradictions? most won't like the URL posted below, or the expanded message there, listing many "issues" including the Judas one I copy here... but it is simply an analysis of Biblical texts which leave room for questions if not doubt. <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html" target=_top>http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlso n/nt_contradictions.html</a> It is very unclear in the gospels just what Judas Iscariot's betrayal consisted of, probably because there was absolutely no need for a betrayal. Jesus could have been arrested any number of times without the general populace knowing about it. It would have been simple to keep tabs on his whereabouts. The religious authorities did not need a betrayal - only the gospel writers needed a betrayal, so that a few more "prophecies" could be fulfilled. The whole episode is pure fiction - and, as might be expected, it is riddled with contradictions. 1. The prophecy Matthew says that Judas' payment and death were prophesied by Jeremiah, and then he quotes Zechariah 11:12-13 as proof! 2. Thirty pieces of silver According to Matthew 26:15, the chief priests "weighed out thirty pieces of silver" to give to Judas. There are two things wrong with this: a. There were no "pieces of silver" used as currency in Jesus' time - they had gone out of circulation about 300 years before. b. In Jesus' time, minted coins were used - currency was not "weighed out." By using phrases that made sense in Zechariah's time but not in Jesus' time Matthew once again gives away the fact that he creates events in his gospel to match "prophecies" he finds in the Old Testament. 3. Who bought the Field of Blood? a. In Matthew 27:7 the chief priests buy the field. b. In Acts 1:18 Judas buys the field. 4. How did Judas die? a. In Matthew 27:5 Judas hangs himself. b. In Acts 1:18 he bursts open and his insides spill out. c. According to the apostle Paul, neither of the above is true. Paul says Jesus appeared to "the twelve" after his resurrection. Mark 14:20 makes it clear that Judas was one of the twelve. In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells the twelve disciples, including Judas, that when Jesus rules from his throne, they will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 5. How did the Field of Blood get its name? a. Matthew says because it was purchased with blood money (Matthew 27:6-8). b. Acts says because of the bloody mess caused by Judas' bursting open (Acts 1:18-19). if it is a matter of life and death (namely, ours!!!)...why couldn't it have been more clear, consistant, credible, and convincing? why couldn't the "betrayal" of Jesus been more carefully explained in the story if His death is the non plus ultra of salvation? why is it part of "The Messiness of History" ? (Message edited by john8verse32 on May 29, 2009)

pilgrim99 · 05-29-09 5:33 pm

John, Having faith in Jesus, is the life and death issue. Have you done a search on any of the "contradictions" that infidels listed? I'm not suggesting that the explanations offered are all equally valid, and similar in their level of research, but you seem to be unaware, or to even acknowledge that explanations do exist. I searched "Roman census," got 620,000 responses and only looked at one article Caesar Augustus, Quirinius, and the Census By Dr. Richard P. Bucher which includes this paragraph<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Some scholars have scoffed at the notion that people in faraway Palestine (such as Joseph and Mary) would have had to travel to their ancestral birth place for a census. But we have evidence to show that such traveling was indeed done with a Roman census, in Egypt at least. A Roman census document, dated 104 A.D., has been discovered in Egypt, in which citizens were specifically commanded to return to their original homes for the census.6 Another census document from 119 A.D. has been found in which an Egyptian man identifies himself by giving (1) his name and the names of his father, mother, and grandfather; (2) his original village; (3) his age and profession; (4) a scar above his left eyebrow; (5) his wife's name and age, his wife's father's name; (6) his son's name and age; (6) the names of other relatives living with him. The document is signed by the village registrar and three official witnesses.7 This latter document is of special interest, because it gives us an idea of the kind of information that Joseph and Mary would have had to provide for the census.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

don · 05-29-09 7:02 pm

were they confused? or deliberately sitting on the fence? while taking lithium? Maybe they didn't realize that people 2000 years later would have a problem with these two ideas. Perhaps, to them, the two did not seem to be in conflict. Actually, I know people who don't see the conflict either; My mother, for one, many members of my local church, several of my teaching colleagues, many, many active church people of various denominations. The so-called contradictions in Scripture appear so to the critical eye. Some of those critical eyes also maintain faith. They seek for resolution, harmonization, etc. The puzzle comes as a gift from their God. .

elaine · 05-29-09 7:21 pm

It is amazing that faith can be placed in a book with so many inconsistencies. How does one decide which of the many contradictions are truthful and which are simply additions made by the much later writing of the gospels? If you have an acquaintance who tells you something that you know is not true, do you still consider that everything he has said in the past, or may say in the future is 100% truthful? Does it make any difference whether the Bible stories are truthful or not? Do you simply pick the ones that you value and eliminate the others? How can it then be called the "Holy Bible" or "Word of God"? In that case, faith is a very subjective idea with no true standard for evaluating. There are people today who believe in witches, demons, aliens from outer space, exorcism, and the tooth fairy--all very subjective.

pilgrim99 · 05-29-09 9:40 pm

Elaine, May I gently suggest that you would gain more fulfillment under the sun, by being a critic of some other body of writing than the Holy Bible. The resolutions to contradictions will be easier and finding them will build your ego and bolster your faith in your intellect. Everyone knows that there are difficult passages, and for each of these difficult passages, scholars propose different resolutions. The resolutions proposed by orthodox, Bible believing scholars tend to be significantly different than those proposed by scholars who are not bible believing or orthodox. Your constant repetitive statements, such as "It is amazing that faith can be placed in a book with so many inconsistencies..." fail to acknowledge that reasonable explanations and/or resolutions are available. You might not agree with the explanations, but I would encourage you to at least examine them. It seems that, like John, you favor the explanations of unbelievers, or infidels. Personally, I'm a capitalist, with a capital "C" but if I was looking for explanations of the writings of Karl Marx, I'd probably trust the explanations offered by a Marxist over those offered by those who were not followers of Marx. God gave us freedom of choice, and you are free to choose who you will serve, but in the words of Bob Dylan, " you're gonna serve somebody...." There is no middle ground, being nice is not enough. Will it be the One who died for your sins, and offers His Salvation freely? or will it be the deceiver? The choice is yours and the end states of each choice are clearly laid out in the Bible. The deceivers only weapon is a lie. I believe that you were created for God's purposes, He gifted you with certain traits and abilities, to be used for His Glory. I also believe that God wants you to spend eternity with Him. Don't you care? Do you have what it takes to pay for your sins against your Creator? In other words, are you perfect? That is God's standard. It's higher than anyone that I know can accomplish....but I don't really know you, maybe you have never sinned in thought word or deed, maybe you have a better plan than God's offers, both for today, tomorrow and for eternity. I don't. That's why I have chosen to exchange the filthy rags of my life for the clean, sparkling white clothes that Christ obtained for me. Maybe the clothing of your life is not filthy, like mine. Someone who once had a false sense of their own righteousness said:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Now we do speak wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are perishing. Instead we speak the wisdom of God, hidden in a mystery, that God determined before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood it. If they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But just as it is written, “Things that no eye has seen, or ear heard, or mind imagined, are the things God has prepared for those who love him.” God has revealed these to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So too, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things that are freely given to us by God. And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:6-14 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> True Peace and true fulfillment only come to any of God's creation, when their eternal, God designed purpose is realized. I love the Lord in an imperfect way, but I do love Him, for what he voluntarily endured, on my behalf. Draw me close to you Never let me go I lay it all down again To hear you say that I'm your friend Help me find a way to bring me back to you [Chorus:] You're all I want, You're all I've ever needed You're all I want, Help me know you are near You are my desire No one else will do Cause no one else Can take you place To feel the warmth of Your embrace Help me find a way to bring me back to you [Chorus:] You're all I want, You're all I've ever needed You're all I want, Help me know you are near KUTLESS May God continue to draw you close, and may you respond in love, not fear. He did not give us a spirit of fear.

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