State of ATomorrow

bob_2 · 04-02-10 2:58 pm

Hey, Elaine, I agree with the point but we are trying to get it to the discussion to the new thread:

Tom Norris' Reformed Sabbath - Unbiblical in the catagory: New Covenant Theology - Bob Sands

hfsturges · 06-28-10 12:35 pm

I will make a comment here that may or may not be appreciated. It will reflect my own personal reaction only.

2) There has been a large downturn in the amount of recent posts on here. I believe one reason why ATomorrow has entered a slow phase is that there is only so much one can really talk about in regards to Adventism. I see the site's future as a library of past discussion peppered with a few new posts here and there. In my opinion, this is a fine status for ATomorrow.

Why are so few people posting?
When I first started posting on Atomorrow, there were a lot more serious posts -- even if I did not agree with most of them, at least they were serious, and often well documented. Gradually the forum degenerated to an "anti-adventist" even an anti-christian and anti-biblical forum. Eggregious comments were made along this line. I made one attempt to eliminate the worst, and was slapped down by most of the members of the forum, and was not supported by J.R., which surprised me. It seemed that offering a venue for people to have their say trumped every other issue.

Now what posting is done is mostly a litany of personal bias with little or no relation to Adventism or even to Christianity. Sorry, folks, I am being brutally frank. But the situation is critical, and the forum will not survive at the present rate. Pardon the expression, but the Bible says, "Where there is no vision the people perish."

The only way for any forum to survive in this competitive atmosphere is to find a vision. I am not sure that there is any vision that is not already well populated with wannabees. Ryan has suggested a steering committee. this has real merit, if you can get the right people on the committee, and each person will commit to providing a certain number of posts per week. If you have just five people posting, the forum will be alive.

If this forum should choose a vision and a purpose, AND solve existing problems by strict monitoring, maybe, just maybe there is hopel

Well, I have said my piece. Take it with a grain of salt. It is probably just MY bias!

george · 06-29-10 5:01 am

Hi Hubb,
One problem is that we're no longer listening to each other. We react to the person posting - not to what they're saying. We have put each other in certain boxes and don't deal with individuals but the box we have placed them in. Is there a way to get past that?

hfsturges · 06-29-10 11:28 am

Hi Sirje,

You got it right. When we don't listen to each other -- even to disagree, it is discouraging. This requires Christian courtesy and kindness (e.g. love) and that rare quality -- sensitivity. In one of my lasts posts, I was told that what I wrote was not even worth reading. Who am I to say, maybe he/she was right. But it did not make for any further discussion.

The kind, Christian approach, even if we disagree, is to look at the other as a person that we want to help with our reply. I am at fault here as much as any other, and I have prayed about it.

A forum is a fragile thing. Many of the people who come to a forum come with some kind of problem. This problem is quickly recognized by others on the forum. Sometimes this problem causes irritation or even offense. However, if this is pointed out to the person, he becomes offended and will not return. J.R. had a unique approach. He was a "cowboy" and everyone took what he said with a grain of salt. Thus he could "lay it on" and people would just say "that's just J.R." and would not take offense.

But most of us come across as thinking about what we say, and people know that we mean just what we say, and they don't like it.

Well, I am just letting off a little steam.

george · 06-29-10 3:07 pm

Now, Hubb, I think part of the problem is just what you said , "The kind, Christian approach, even if we disagree, is to look at the other as a person that we want to help with our reply." That's always nice but ee, all of us, always want to tell the other guy how things really are. It would be helpful if, sometimes, if we were ready to learn something too. You think?

hfsturges · 06-29-10 3:49 pm

Sirje, One of the first things I learned when I started to participate on Atomorrow forum was that everyone was very firm in their convictions. Soo-o-o-o-o I did not pretend that I would change anyone's mind. I just participated for the fun of it. I also learned what the questions are that people ask, and got some practice in defending my own convictions. I mentioned this once on this forum, and aroused ire in some people because I was "using the forum" in a way they did not like! Ach du Lieber! Did I do something wrong? I just "pulled in my horns" and went on to another subject.

I have thought about that matter of "convictions." I believe that everyone has what I call a "model of truth." This model is built first of all on a skeleton of solid well documented truth. But that leaves gaps, and we fill in the gaps with conjecture. Problems arise when we cannot tell the difference between solid well documented truth and conjecture. then you throw in the human tendency to error and to the effect of emotional issues and personal bias.

When one person points out the obvious error in another person's model, and the other person does not change, it becomes disappointing to the first person. But we need to realize that a person cannot accept a correction without rearranging his entire model. And that takes thought and lots of time. A person probably can best "learn" when he recognizes his own error and finds a person whose answers will fit in smoothly with his model.

Please pardon the philosophy... . . . . . . .

Old Abe · 06-29-10 4:59 pm

I do not post to this forum for a number of reasons but am sorry to see so few others doing so.I visit often and usually enjoy most posts but Tom and Bob2 get a little tiresome as their posts are so predictable.And a little extreme and offensive in manner at times.Leave the SDA church alone if you do not like their doctrines move on you are not forced to stay.

george · 06-29-10 8:56 pm

Hubb,
We come from so many different backgrounds; although I would say most SDAs are second, third, even fourth generation in the US. Even though my grandmother was an SDA back in Estonia, I consider myself first generation since I had no clue abut any of it until my mom and I were invited ko some meetings. I knew nothing about Ellen White, the Sabbath etc. I was baptized at 16 and educated AUC after graduating from public high school in NY state.

My base for my SDA membership was the Sabbath; and it wasn't until I heard an interview with Des Ford was I introduced to the Gospel another 16+ years later. This, after graduating from AUC with English major and a double minor which included Religion. I can't believe I hadn't heard the Gospel presented before. I took my baptism seriously, and my "religion". It wasn't that I had accepted the church casually. I was bewildered about that and somewhat bitter - felt I had been fooled somehow.

My negativism against SDA teachings bothers me because the church had been my family for so long - (only child; father not SDA; mother died while I was attending college). I find the Gospel is missing in SDA theology and I have to find it (keep it alive) on my own. This is my viewpoint. This focus keeps being diverted by all these side issues SDA theology keeps bringing up as so vital. It's all beside the point.

So, if it's issues we want to discuss - I'm all for it - but my only authority is the Bible as it was written and meant to be read when it was written. I can't jump around from book to book to prove date lines and time frames. But that's just me

tom_norris · 06-30-10 1:51 pm

Elaine said: What is the NC "Sabbath" that is being referred to?

Tom said: The NC Sabbath is a doctrine that Jesus teaches in all four Gospels for the church. It is very different from the OC Sabbath of the Jews, which the Pharisees promoted in the Gospel Story.

Elaine said: I find absolutely no reference in the NT to a "New Covenant Sabbath."

Tom said: Open your eyes and understand that every time you read the 4 (New Covenant) Gospels, and see Jesus promoting, defending, and following his working, active, 7th day Sabbath, you are seeing a “reference” to the NC, Gospel Sabbath.

This Gospel doctrine has “absolutely” been part of the church from the very beginning.

By contrast, when the Pharisees debate Jesus about the Sabbath, they are defending the OC Sabbath of Moses. Thus there are TWO different doctrines of the 7th day Sabbath fighting it out in the Gospels for all to see.

People must be blind not to see this. And so they are. Most all are blinded by their various traditions and prejudices. It is human nature to misunderstand Gospel truth.

Jesus represents the NC. He clearly repudiates the OC Sabbath by his own authority and that of his Father. He taught a weekly Gospel Sabbath that abolished the Priestly hierarchy and removed Levites from power. He also exempted all his followers from the rules and regulations of the OC Sabbath, making Sabbath breaking an impossibility in the NC. Thus the doctrine of the NC Sabbath DOES NOT contain any prohibition against work as the SDA’s have taught so loudly all these years.

While the SDA’s were correct to understand that Sunday is wrong, they made the error of embracing a distorted Gospel and the OC Sabbath! This is the problem. This is what must be corrected before the Advent Movement can go forward.

In the NC, all are free to work on the Sabbath without guilt. All are Priests of God. Only Jesus has the authority to invent the Gospel Sabbath for the church and this is what he has done.

The real Lord’s Day for the church is not on Sunday. Nor is it a day where work is prohibited by anyone who follows the Gospel of Christ. No wonder the final Gospel message is going to be such a shock. No wonder that it would expose organized religion as corrupt and very wrong about most everything.

Moreover, there are a number of additional NC Sabbath “references” in Acts, Colossians, Hebrews, and Revelation that are also speaking about the Gospel Sabbath as opposed to the OC Sabbath. Just as there are Two Covenants, there are two different Sabbaths clashing in the Bible.

Elaine said: In fact, there is no commendation of any holy day given to the Christians. What Bible translation are you reading to come to that conclusion?

Tom said: You must not have read the Gospels? You must have overlooked the Sabbath teachings of Jesus?

Both the Jews and the apostolic church embraced the 7th day Sabbath. After that, the Gentile church embraced Sunday as their NC Sabbath, and so it is today.

Why has the church always embraced a weekly Sabbath? Because this is what Jesus teaches in the NT. This is where the NC Sabbath comes from; the Gospel teaching of Jesus. Too bad that the Gentile church did not fully understand it, but nonetheless, this is the basis for this weekly doctrine of the church. The teachings of Jesus in the NT.

So you and others can pretend to be shocked that anyone would think there is a Sabbath for the church, but you are in the small minority, showing your own ignorance of not only NT doctrine, but also of church history.

There has ALWAYS been a weekly Sabbath for the church, as well as a credible theological basis for such a doctrine in the Gospels. The critics can never overturn such a fact pattern.

Tom said: Hub, nice to hear from you. We can always count on your IJ based, Traditional views to keep us all entertained.

There are not too many TSDA’s still standing these days, at least not too many that want to tangle with those who have the facts. This is one big reason why this pro IJ, pro tithe crowd is not anxious to come online here anymore.

They all saw how Goldstein was destroyed and how all those that tried to defend tithe and the IJ were made to look foolish. So what would be the point for them? They know they have lost the debate, and most everyone else knows it also. But those like Pastor Don and Hub, have no intention whatsoever of repenting for their OC errors.

Hub, you are a brave man to come on here and lecture anyone about anything religious. You are part of the problem, even as your twisted theology has destroyed the SDA church, and sent it into corruption and irrelevance.

Hub said: I will make a comment here that may or may not be appreciated. It will reflect my own personal reaction only.

Tom said: The issue is not whether it your advice is popular or appreciated, but whether it is sound and wise. Will your words help Adventism come to their senses and repent, or will they do the opposite? Let’s see?

Hub said: There has been a large downturn in the amount of recent posts on here. I believe one reason why ATomorrow has entered a slow phase is that there is only so much one can really talk about in regards to Adventism.

Tom said: Ha! Adventism is so badly broken, there is plenty to discuss if the focus in on finding truth and reforming false doctrine. However, there is little to discuss if the status quo is going to be promoted or defended.

The main reason for the slow-down was the number of address changes (online) combined with a new site that needed to be edited. People could not find the site.

However, the address has been stabilized and the search engines seem to be working, and it is only a matter of time before those that want to talk about serious Gospel Reform will do so.

But a number of threads still need to be cleaned up before this site is fully functional. All those that have posts to be edited, (Don, Bill D, Bob, Bob2, Sirje, etc.) should do so or delete them. I still have a number to do myself.

Everyone can go to their Profile and view a list of all their posts, and then edit or delete as necessary.

Hub said: I see the site's future as a library of past discussion peppered with a few new posts here and there.

Tom said: It is the late JR’s ATomorrow site that should be viewed “as a library of past discussion.” That site is full of great discussions about Adventist Reform. It is still up and I use it all the time.

So Hub, the moment you try to start defending your false views of the Gospel over here, I can easily go over there and find the past discussion where I refuted and destroyed your views, and show it to everyone.

THIS is why many no longer want to try and promote or defend their false doctrines over here. It didn’t work on the last site and it will work even less on this one.

This site is a continuation of JR’s Forum, except it is up and running in real time, and AReform is making more sense to people.

Which is why many of the key threads in the AR section, like “The Reformed Sabbath, Adventist Reform, and the Sabbath is Colossians, Tithing etc, are constantly being hit.

So even when there is no posting, discussion, or debate, people are still reading the key points about Adventist Reform. Thus many are still being exposed to the real issues instead of worthless diversions from the TSDA’s.

Hub said: In my opinion, this is a fine status for ATomorrow.

Tom said: Ha! No doubt the TSDA’s wished they could shut down Adventist Reform. But alas, it is now easier than ever for anyone to Google the issues and discover this discussion. And this is what is happening every day.

I can’t keep up with the questions, both e-mails and phone calls that come in from people reading the All Experts.com site and this site. Other Forums are also picking up this discussion, and at some point, a tipping point will occur.

So if you think that Adventist Reform is fading away, think again. It is TA that is dying. AR is gaining more traction every day, even as those that support the IJ, tithe, etc, are left with a hopeless and dishonest cause, full of double-talk and delusion.

Hub asked: Why are so few people posting?

Tom said: Plenty of people are posting in other places about Adventist Reform. In fact, as more SDA’s discover the issues online, many are perplexed because they have never heard about this discussion. I get e-mails and phone calls from many people asking for more info and such.

One Dr. from California called me up a few days ago to try and convince me that Ellen White was a fraud and a mentally ill person, while others want to know how in the world can there be a Sabbath where working is not a sin.

So there are an awful lot of people scratching their heads right now trying to comprehend this discussion, even though there is not a lot of posting on this site. Most everyone here has already heard all the issues, and thus it is boring to many, but to those that have not followed the online debates, and read this material for the first, it is very new and different.

Most SDA’s are not aware that tithing is a false doctrine or that their SDA Sabbath is very wrong. Most have no idea that the White Estate has been hiding documents and misrepresenting Ellen White all these years.

Many hardly know what to think of all this: So this site is useful just as it is, without any further posting. People are still reading the points that have been raised, and they will continue to do so. Which is why the key threads keep getting more hits, without any visible discussion.

In other words, posting is not as important as reading what has already been posted and trying to comprehend these paradigm changing concepts.

Reading, researching, and thinking seriously about the issues is far superior to repetitive posting and endless prattling about nothing.

Hub said: When I first started posting on Atomorrow, there were a lot more serious posts -- even if I did not agree with most of them, at least they were serious, and often well documented.

Tom said: What made JR’s site interesting was the conflict and tension between Adventist Reform and those brave enough to step forward and defend TA. It made for instructive entertainment for most all except Goldstein, and those that tried to defend tithe and the IJ, etc.

But those days are over. Today, no TSDA dares try to debate Tom Norris or Dr. Ford about the issues. The 1888 Study leader refused to have an online discussion about church history and 1888. Even Jack Sequeira, when asked a few questions about the IJ and 1888, stonewalled the issue and ran away as fast as Goldstein ever did.

So there are no big debates going on here because the TSDA’s have been defeated for all to see. And if any of them think otherwise, they are welcome to try. But none will do so. They know better.

Traditional Adventism has lost the debate for all to see. So none dare try to promote their false doctrines around here much anymore for good reason.

Hub said: Gradually the forum degenerated to an "anti-adventist" even an anti-christian and anti-biblical forum. Eggregious comments were made along this line. I made one attempt to eliminate the worst, and was slapped down by most of the members of the forum, and was not supported by J.R., which surprised me. It seemed that offering a venue for people to have their say trumped every other issue.

Tom said: The Gospel is about Freedom from religious oppression, false doctrine, and control. So JR was right to understand that the freedom to study the Bible and to think and speak about the Gospel is of first importance, even as it is the law of the land.

The fact that many used their freedom to reflect their confusion and vent their anger is beside the point. I agree that the old site was a rough and tumble affair. It was like the Wild West, and there was no telling who would roll onto the site and start shooting the place up. One day it could be the wild Cliff Goldstein and the next it could be someone screaming that this site was part of a Jesuit plot to overthrow Adventism.

JR, of course was the cranky town Sheriff, as well as the Mayor, and we all played a role, for better or worse, as the record shows.

However, history moves on. Hopefully we are all more mature and educated about the issues, if not more honest and open to Adventist Reform. Hopefully, this time around there is a more reflection and less irrational debate and argument; more of a quest for truth.

Hub said: Now what posting is done here is mostly a litany of personal bias with little or no relation to Adventism or even to Christianity.

Tom said: Perhaps the site reflects the fact that Adventism is so confused and dysfunctional that it needs to take a time out? Perhaps few know this type of discussion is taking place?

But at some point, the discussion of Adventist Reform will overtake all other issues. At some point, the paradigm will change and Reform will take hold. There are no other viable options.

Hub said: Sorry, folks, I am being brutally frank. But the situation is critical, and the forum will not survive at the present rate. Pardon the expression, but the Bible says, "Where there is no vision the people perish."

Tom said: Let me be “brutally frank.” The situation for the SDA church is critical; Adventism will not survive at the present rate. The church is self-destructing in unbelief and corruption. Those that turn from Adventist Reform, like you Hub, are part of the problem. They are fighting the Gospel and the genuine fundamentals of the Reformation and Adventism.

Hub said: The only way for any forum to survive in this competitive atmosphere is to find a vision. I am not sure that there is any vision that is not already well populated with wannabees.

Tom said: The concept that has driven both AToday and then ATomorrow, is Adventist Reform. Just think if there had been no articulation of AR by Tom Norris? What would the past discussion have been like?

In fact, there would have been little debate on AToday if not for AR, and thus no reason for it to be shut down. Then there would have been no need for JR’s site and no need for this one. But that is not what happened.

We are all here because of Adventist Reform and this is still the only way for this forum or for the SDA church for that matter, to survive. To the extent this site focuses on the issues, it makes itself relevant. The issue is AR.

Hub said: Ryan has suggested a steering committee. This has real merit, if you can get the right people on the committee, and each person will commit to providing a certain number of posts per week. If you have just five people posting, the forum will be alive.

Tom said: This discussion is not about trying to manufacturer pointless discussion for its own sake. No. This site must focus on purposeful discussion, just like the two sites that preceded it.

Adventism needs major REFORM, not dishonest and pointless prattle that enables false doctrine and promotes phony history.

Hub said: If this forum should choose a vision and a purpose, AND solve existing problems by strict monitoring, maybe, just maybe there is hopel

Tom said: The purpose of this Forum and the two that went before, is to discuss and promote Adventist Reform.

There are plenty of other sites that promote useless chit chat, most it very controlled and censored, as well as support the IJ and tithe, (like yours Hub). But there are very few, if any, that speak honestly about the real issues. And none that understand the changes that are necessary to move Adventism forward.

Hub said: Well, I have said my piece. Take it with a grain of salt. It is probably just MY bias!

Tom said: We all have our bias. None are objective. The secret is to have a Gospel bias as opposed to an Old Covenant view of theology. I have the former, you have the latter. Too bad for you!

Moreover, anyone so stubborn as you, who still cling to the IJ, tithe, and the OC Sabbath, in spite of the evidence that has been put forward, is so full of bias and error that it is beyond sad. Your advice reflects your confused views of the Gospel and your refusal to embrace Adventist Reform.

Sirje said: With a super-conservative in charge of the church, how long before there's going to be an attempt to shut down open and free discussion of the issues?

Tom said: Ha! There has NEVER been a time when the modern SDA church allowed for, or promoted, freedom of speech and discussion. The SDA leaders live to censor, control, and double-talk. That is why they refuse to enter into this discussion and answer any questions. It is also why they hid the 1888 debate all these years and why they still refuse to admit what happened, even when the evidence was discovered.

The SDA Community in Takoma Park has always been under the Old Covenant Law of Moses, and under the iron fist of their incompetent and dishonest leaders, like Arthur White. Nothing has changed and most probably nothing will ever change with this dishonest group. I think there will have to be a new Adventist organization to rise out of the ashes of the confused and rebellious SDA’s.

Our ability to conduct free and open discussion over the past few years is only because of the Internet. If the church leaders could find a way to pull the plug and shut down this discussion they would do so, and they have done so a number of times.

Let all understand how determined the SDA’s are to control the minds and wallets of those foolish enough to let them. That is also why they exiled Dr. Ford. The church leaders have been trying to force people into believing what they tell them; not what is truth, and it causing great confusion and schism within Adventism.

Let all be thankful that we live in an era of freedom that will not allow the SDA leaders to take away our right to study and discuss the Bible and church history in the light of day. Otherwise, Dr. Ford would have been tortured and burned at the stake, and so too all that stand up and condemn the wicked leaders for their legions of false doctrine.

The recent show about the Tudors on Showtime is worth watching. Those that disagreed with the King’s view of theology were tortured into confession before they were burned at the stake.

We should all be very thankful that we can speak about doctrine without the fear of torture from the church. It is only the law that prevents it from taking place. If it were still legal, the SDA church would set up a torture chamber next to the White Estate, where all would learn correct doctrine.

Sirje said: A-today was shut down when tithing was questioned and JR kept it going privately. It's only matter of time before the Spectrum blogs will go the same way - which means this site will become busy again, as the only place where discussion is possible.

Tom said: JR showed great courage over at AToday. Had he been an employee of the church, things might have been very different. But Spectrum, like AToday, is fully under the control of the church leaders.

There is no freedom in Adventism to discuss the real issues and there never was. The leaders have tried to make it appear that there is open and honest discussion about the issues in the church, but it is all a farce and a delusion. There is no honest or worthwhile discussion taking place within the church. Nor do the leaders have any intention of dealing with the real issues, which demand major Reform.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

hfsturges · 06-30-10 1:58 pm

Old Abe,

Good to see a new name. How about making it a habit?

With the Atomorrow.com forum, there was a large backlog of experience such that it had become a "community." The participants were friends of each other. In opening up the forum so that everyone had a chance to have their say, it also invited abuse. Persons who supported the SDA church, EGW, and even those who saw problems but responded with serious discussion -- became fewer and fewer. We began to collect more and more participants who focused on complaints against the church, and even presented atheistic and anti-biblical comments.

It was not clear to me whether the forum just tolerated that activity, or actively promoted it.

I am not sure what the answer is. To try to moderate and limit that activity can offend some people. It can lead to a "sterile forum." To do nothing tends to discourage those more likely to give serious responses, as has happened here. I will have to admit that I participated on a forum one time where everyone agreed with me (at great length) and it was a bit boring!

In short, we need to encourage persons who will present serious posts. These can be persons who defend the church and EGW; and at the same time permit others to present problems as they see it.

How can abuse be prevented? This is the problem. One characteristic of those who abuse the forum is their tendency to repetition. They have a certain limited repetoire of responses that come up over and over. Would it be reasonable for a moderator to "approve" the posts from these individuals, putting their serious responses where they were directed; and putting others into a special category for all such posts?

I say this with trepidation, as I recognize that no one wants to be that moderator -- who will receive flak for his decisions one way or the other. And it will take time, lots of time if the forum gets busy again. And, a forum would need to be a popular forum to make people want to be part of it.

Ahhh yes!

hfsturges · 06-30-10 2:14 pm

A response regarding Tom's post:

Advice to a young women looking for a husband:
"When you find your Mr. Right, be sure that his first name is not "Always!"

Tom's post as usual is excessively long. He is free to say (repeatedly) that he is right and I am wrong.
He speaks of the New Covenant and the Old Covenant (Sabbath?) without references or details of what he means.
And he comes back to that tiresome theme, "Adventist Reform." Does the Adventist Church need to be reformed? Yes! Of course! But God has mercifully not allowed Tom Norris to direct that reform!

hfsturges · 06-30-10 2:25 pm

Sirje,

You mentioned that you did not hear the gospel at AUC. Now that you have heard it, how would you describe what was missing at AUC? I guess I would ask, what is your present understanding of the gospel?

. . . ""So, if it's issues we want to discuss - I'm all for it - but my only authority is the Bible as it was written and meant to be read when it was written. I can't jump around from book to book to prove date lines and time frames. But that's just me""

amen, Amen! AMEN!! I would like nothing better than to see more of what you just said! As a sometimes Sabbath School teacher, I found the usual "topical approach" to be hard to teach, sometimes confusing, and of limited interest to Sabbath School members. I wrote at least twice to Clifford Goldstein telling him that we needed to study the Bible as written. Chapters and books at a time. The Bible writers had an agenda, an outline that they followed. They had points they wanted to make. WHY NOT STUDY TO FIND OUT WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY?

Clifford always agreed with me, but no change was made. This present quarter will be different, where we study Romans -- one or two chapters at a time. AND it will be about the Gospel!

george · 06-30-10 9:21 pm

Hub,
It wasn't that I didn't hear the Gospel specifically at AUC. Being at AUC was great. As an SDA in a public high school, I couldn't really take part in the entire program. AUC became a very comforting, safe place. My reference was to the fact that it took over 16 years after my baptism, which included four years at an SDA college where I received a minor in Religion to hear the Gospel for the first time. It didn't take me long to see that too much emphasis was on appearance - everything from how we, the students looked, acted etc. without emphasis on what would motivate us, other than school rules, some of which were ridiculous. Daily worships at the dorm were not times of worship despite opening prayers and hymns - but that's just small stuff. I was relatively new to Adventism at that point but I started to see some problems in the fabric of Adventism. But it was good to be on campus and I met some really good people there - inspiring.

I began studying the Bible for a deeper understanding when I was married and a mom; and something didn't ring true to SDA beliefs that I had been given in my religion classes. But when you're in a class and getting graded on what you're given, you parrot back. This was around the time "righteousness by faith hit the denomination and Morris Venden (JR's pet peeve) wrote a bunch of stuff. It was just what I needed and I ate it all up. It lead me to Romans and there I started to find some answers. When my husband and I heard a tape (not the infamous one) by Ford, it all came together for me, and I realized I had never really made a decision about Christ - only about a bunch of SDA beliefs.

We use the term "Gospel" too easily, without thinking. We pack all our teachings into that term and think we have responded to IT. The Gospel is, of course, literally "good news". What is good news about what I learned from SDA theology? Well. let's see - judgment was beginning any minute and before it did, we needed to have our ducks in a row. This meant we had to follow every jot and tittle the church put out. k That didn't sound right to me even from the start. The good news Christ gave to his kin was that God was going to be in charge soon as a new age was about to appear; and, He was there to inaugurate it. The introduction of this new age was, both a horrible event, but followed by really good news - Christ's resurrection which He said meant resurrection for anybody who wanted to join Him. And I did/do.

It doesn't mean a prescribed diet, dress, or deportment. It doesn't mean sitting through a bunch of lectures motivated by a "brand new Bible"; it doesn't mean a "correct understanding" of a series of events in an obscure book that could mean anything, unless you know the background from which John wrote it. It doesn't mean any of those things. It even doesn't matter which day you worship God, as long as you do. If you have grown up attending church on Saturday and think that that is what is meant by "keeping the Sabbath holy", think again. And on, and on it goes. SDA theology isn't worse than anyone else's but it has a lot to learn from some of the others as well.

Well, you asked.

elaine · 06-30-10 10:01 pm

I can commiserate with Sirje. As a second-generation SDA, I never heard the Gospel until many years after I had married and was a parent. When Dr. Ford began his message, and inquisition, I began seriously studying the Pauline Epistles; something that was never studied in all the years at SDA schools.

Yes, we studied the geography of Paul's missionary journeys and could and had to recite them on tests. But we never read nor was it interpreted that there had been a radical change from the Jewish practices to the new Christian movement.

Returning to Jesus for the law, he summed it up in one command: Love your neighbor as yourself; and was repeated in the other NT writings. Yet, as an Adventist, the Bible was taught in "proof-text" method: skipping around from the NT to the OT without any context whatsoever.

After studying Romans, Galatians and Ephesians, it became very clear to me that there were far less rules for Christians compared to Judaism, and all the major unique doctrines of Adventism were derived from the Old Testament (Old Covenant) as though nothing changed with the cross and resurrection. Paul never preached the Sabbath (one of the most important law in Judaism) nor the 1844 IJ (how could he have known about something nearly 2,000 years earlier?); tithing, never taught in the NT, but in the Old, and these were given the greatest emphasis. The simple Gospel may have been taught but the unique doctrines had to be believed before "converting" to Adventism. Most new converts had formerly been "good" Christians and only had to believe and practice the Sabbath to be Adventists, as this was an external observance that could be evaluated, while all the others were not so obvious.

When I finally began to realize that there was nothing in the NT defining nor requiring the Adventist beliefs, I had to request my membership because I could not, in full integrity, claim to be something I could not believe.

Does that make sense?

I still love Adventists, regularly attend the SDA church and of course, have many friends from long duration that are Adventists. I did not leave because of any problem with people, it was solely the inability to affirm the unique SDA doctrines.

hfsturges · 06-30-10 11:11 pm

Elaine and Sirje,

To quote from Sirje:

"We come from so many different backgrounds;"

You mention some things in Adventism that you object to. Could you possibly accept the possibility that there are some Adventists who need just that approach?

Life is a many faceted situation. Some people need and respond to a very simple gospel. Many Ethiopians, not even knowing how to read, will be saved in the Kingdom. Yet there are others who need a detailed and sophisticated understanding of the Bible, or they will be swept away by philosophy and speculation. As for the IJ, Tithe, EGW, the Sabbath, etc -- There are good reasons for each. Are these required for salvation? I am not the judge. I do believe that they are required to avoid being deceived.

Do you remember George Mueller, who supported a total of 18,000 orphans on prayer alone? His method was to begin the day reading the Bible, slowly and meditatively. He would pray as he read -- he speaking through prayer, and God speaking through the Bible. I looked at my own devotional life, formal and repetitive. I knew it was not adequate. So I made a change about a month ago.

First thing in the morning I turn on my computer, and bring up WordSearth with the KJV on the left pane, and the Amplified Bible and the NIV on the right pane. Then I put my arms on the desk and pray for what I know I need for the day, and for wisdom from His Word. Then I read. I started at first with Matthew and would read as fast as I could understand, using my KJV (hardcopy) Bible, and checking with the other translations where needed for further understanding. I did not read for material for my website, nor to prepare the Sabbath School lesson, nor for the "Bible Year." I had no goal to read three chapters, but just went as fast as the spirit led.

In doing this I have learned some things from familiar verses that I have seen many times. It has been a help and an encouragement. I have reached Colossians chapter 2 by this morning. Maybe you are already doing something like this -- let us hear about it. If you would like to start doing something, pray that God will lead you to just what is right for you.

Is this a good idea for you? Probably not. Just what works for me. You will have to work out what works best for you.

hfsturges · 07-01-10 9:44 am

Tom Norris,

I went back and reviewed your comments to me. I found that my theology was twisted and my beliefs false. No description and no documentation. Really nothing for me to discuss as your mind was already made up. However, I was not kind in my response, and I beg your pardon. I needed to show Christian love, which I did not. So please forgive.

george · 07-01-10 1:42 pm

Hi again Hub,

I have no problem whatsoever with what or how a person understands from the Bible. Like I said, we come from many different places... . It's the theology as demanded by a church that I object to. Church doctrine should be basic to the Gospel - the application left to the individual as lead by the Spirit.

hfsturges · 07-02-10 3:46 pm

Sirje, I thought that you might like this -- From:
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthrea … 698/1.html

The first step of apostasy is to get up a creed, telling us what we shall believe.

The second is, to make that creed a test of fellowship.

The third is to try members by that creed.

The fourth is to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed.

And fifth, to commence persecution against such. - J. N. Loughborough

tom_norris · 07-03-10 12:34 pm

Hub complained: Tom's post as usual is excessively long.

Tom said: As usual, Hub has ignored the points addressed to him, all the while complaining about the length of my post.

Sounds like we are back at JR’s site, where the TSDA’s complained non-stop, like spoiled rotten children who could not get their way.

This is the way it goes with the TSDA’s, they are only here to double-talk, divert, and stonewall. They do not want reform, nor do they want to admit that they have any false doctrine. Thus they refuse to deal with the issues, even as they live to create diversion in a pathetic attempt to protect their worthless cultic doctrines.

The TSDA’s seem incapable of honestly dealing with the issues. Such an attitude is not productive or worthwhile. I personally don’t want such dishonest people posting over here. There were plenty of them at the previous two sites, and there is no reason for them to bother with this site, unless they want to repent and learn the Gospel.

In times past, on the old TA site, when a point was made, about tithe or the IJ, etc, and the issue settled by the evidence, it never stuck with the TSDA’s. Within a day or so, they would just continue on as if a mountain of evidence had not solved anything.

Then I would have to go back and say, “No, you are not being honest with the evidence etc.” So I would repost the proof, often adding more texts and more back up proof for the point being made. Round and round we would go with this little dishonest dance.

So I was forced to repeat the same point over and over in order to counter the dishonest TSDA’s with their cultic propaganda. So I know how dishonest the TSDA’s really are. They are great liars and deceivers. I am not going to tolerate their games over here anymore than I did on the AToday or at the old AT site.

We are all grown ups and thus we should all act like rational adults, men and women of good will and sincere Christian intention.

But the TSDA’s acts like dishonest, evil children. Few TSDA’s know how to discuss the issues in a rational and Protestant manner, and none of them know how to read the Bible. If they could do these things, they would all run away from TA, and many have. But those that are left are hardcore zealots, delusional, and full of false doctrine that they have declared to be true.

Foolish TSDA’s.

Hub said: He is free to say (repeatedly) that he is right and I am wrong. 

Tom said: While anyone can declare victory in a discussion of words, ideas, and sources. The real challenge is to win the discussion with evidence, facts, and Gospel truth. The fact that all the TSDA’s have run away from this discussion proves the obvious. They cannot win this discussion. Period!

So not only am I free to say I am right and TA wrong, I have proven it over and over and over. I have been daring those like Clifford Goldstein or Doug Batchlor to come forward and make their case under cross-examination from Tom Norris and Dr. Ford. But no one will dare step forward.

In fact, they have all run away. Why? Because they cannot prevail against Adventist Reform. They cannot prove their doctrines; much less refute the points associated with Dr. Ford and Adventist Reform. Not on any point. Not about tithe or the IJ, Ellen White or 1844. Not even on wine or the Lord’s Supper.

So these wolves hide in the shadows, trying to figure out how to rehabilitate their wretched, anti-Gospel theology.

Hub, this discussion is about the issues, and the evidence necessary to solve the many problems that are destroying the Advent Movement. It is the evidence, applied to the issues that matter.

Such a discussion requires complete freedom to deal with the issues and to identify and remove myths and correct false doctrine. You would prefer censorship and “strict control” over all posts so that your false Gospel will have a fighting chance. But this is never going to happen.

The Internet cannot really be censored, as the SDA leaders found out the hard way when they shut down AToday. JR just laughed at them and set up another site SO THAT THE DISCUSSION OF ADVENTIST REFORM could continue. And so it did. It is going stronger than ever.

Your views about the IJ and the Gospel, tithe and the Three Angels Messages, and even Wine, have been proven to be theologically wrong and historically impossible, over and over again. But yet, you pretend your views are foolproof and holy, supported by Heaven, when they are no such thing.

Let all understand: The TSDA’s have lost the debate and the more they try to go forward the worse things get for them. Now there is a new doctrine about the Sabbath for them to pretend they can’t understand. It blows their OC minds, and leaves them stammering.

How strange that the SDA’s can claim to understand how the IJ works, way out in deep space, beyond the record and the view of the Hubble Telescope, but yet, they can’t grasp the difference between the weekly Old and New Covenant Sabbaths here on earth?

There is a reason why the Laodicean Messages does not exempt the wretched, blind and naked SDA’s. They are just as guilty of embracing a false Gospel and a false Sabbath as the RC church or the Mormons. They have all embraced one error after another and the SDA’s lead the Protestant pack with myth and false doctrine.

But the TSDA’s don’t think they are wrong. They refuse to confess and repent as demanded by Jesus in the Pre-Advent Judgment of Rev 3. And by taking this position, they are spitting in the face of Heaven, and turning their backs on the genuine Gospel that Dr, Ford delivered, and to the 4th Angels Message, which is the next thing on the eschatological agenda.

So Hub stop pretending that your views have somehow been credibly defended by you, or anyone else. And that they are just as good as anyone else’s teachings. They are not. Your views are very wrong. They have been destroyed by Tom Norris on both the AToday and JR’s ATomorrow site. They are also being destroyed on this new site, replaced by correct doctrines that feature Adventist Reform.

If you don’t like Adventist Reform; Go somewhere else. Hang out at your own confused web site and promote your own false, SDA Gospel. But don’t think you are going to get away with that garbage over here. You can try, but you will fail, just like at the past two sites.

Moreover, there is a record of our discussions at JR’s old site and I would be happy to find some threads of our past conversations and embarrass you once again on this site. Is this what you want?

Traditional Adventism is very wrong. Please don’t insult our intelligence on this site by suggesting otherwise.

Hub said: Tom speaks of the New Covenant and the Old Covenant (Sabbath?) without references or details of what he means. 

Tom said: My, my, my. After all these years, poor Hub still can’t understand the issues? Ha! This is too funny.

Hub now complains that Tom Norris is not providing enough content, enough “references and details.”

So which is it? Do the posts have too much, or not enough information? When you make up your mind, let me know.

Hub, if you want to understand the Reformed Sabbath, I suggest that you go to the AReform section and read the thread about the Reformed Sabbath. It has over 1,600 hits and climbing.

Then try the thread about the Sabbath in Colossians, and the Tribulation. They are both closing in on 1,000 hits each.

After reading all that material, if you still can’t figure out what is being said and why, then there is nothing I can do for you. You need profession help. Your brain is broken. Or more likely, you just don’t want to face up to the facts that prove you wrong.

Hub, why not stop pretending you can’t understand the issues and face up to them like an honest man? These games that the TSDA’s play is getting old. No one is buying this dishonest doubletalk anymore.

Why not just say that you like the Old Covenant Sabbath, and that is that? Why not proudly admit you are a tithe paying legalist that hopes you will be good enough to pass the IJ before you die? Why not tell it like it is?

Hub, you are a lost man, and that is too bad. JR spoke very highly of you, and he did not do that of many people. Your fatal flaw is that you are determined to embrace TA with both hands, and it is your right to do so. But don’t try and pretend that you have the genuine Gospel because you do not.

TA is awful theology. It will not save anyone. Don’t think for a second that you have obtained Eternal Life; you have not. At this point you are a lost, unrepentant, Laodicean. How sad.

Eternal Life is only for those that understand the New Covenant and embrace the genuine Gospel of Jesus and Paul. This is a concept that has eluded you and all the TSDA’s. Sad.

Hub said: And Tom comes back to that tiresome theme, "Adventist Reform."

Tom said: Ha! It is obvious that the TSDA’s do not like nor want Gospel reform. Why should they? It condemns most everything they teach and believe, even as it exposes them as incompetent, dishonest, promoters of one false doctrine after another.

So why would these Judaizers want to be corrected and exposed by anyone, (whether by Dr. Ford or Tom Norris), as wolves in sheep’s clothing? They are, no doubt very weary of being pounded so hard by Adventist Reform, but that is just too bad. They deserve to be embarrassed and condemned for all to see.

It is obvious that the SDA leaders don’t want the members to know that the White Estate was promoting a huge fraud about Ellen White and 1888 all these years. Nor do they want the White Estate to be reformed or the record corrected.

Adventism has developed into such a dishonest scam, that to correct it is to overturn most everything that the church teaches, exposing the leaders as corrupt and worthless buffoons, wolves in sheep’s clothing. The leaders don’t like such an outcome, so they pretend all is well and that no reform is necessary. So they fear reform for what it will do to them.

The leaders don’t want anyone to know that tithing is a false doctrine that was never practiced in the apostolic church. And that the SDA’s are the world’s greatest liars for teaching that tithing is a NT doctrine when it is not. The SDA church has made $$ BILLIONS $$ from the false doctrine of tithe, and they have no desire to repent from such a profitable error.

Of course they also don’t want to confess that Dr. Ford is correct and that the IJ is against the Gospel and that it is not the judgment Pillar in the Three Angels Messages as the incompetent leaders claimed. Such a confession would ruin the credibility of the leadership, at least what little credibility it still has.

No leader wants to stand up and confess that Glacier View was a great error and apologize to Dr. Ford? None want to tell the truth or incriminate themselves.

To add insult to injury, here comes a new Sabbath doctrine that no SDA saw coming. Thus the correct Sabbath condemns the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s, even as it proves that the church has not understood the Gospel or the Sabbath properly.

Of course the TSDA’s are stunned by such a discovery. How in the world could they end up with the wrong Sabbath? How is that even possible? So they pretend they can’t understand the Reformed Sabbath, just like the 1st century Jews.

So on and on it goes, as one SDA error after another is examined and found to be wrong. And there is nothing that the SDA’s can do to escape this sad situation, except repent. The facts will not go away. Nor the call to confess false doctrine and repent.

The only correct path for the Advent Movement is repentance and Reform. The TSDA’s have another path, one that has already proven itself false, dangerous, and worthless. Those who follow this delusion will not be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem. Nor will they gain control of this site so that they can marginalize Adventist Reform.

Hub said: Does the Adventist Church need to be reformed? Yes! Of course! But God has mercifully not allowed Tom Norris to direct that reform!

Tom said: Ha! So the SDA’s need minor reform, but not in such a manner that requires them to tell the truth and confess their errors? What kind of phony reform are you advocating?

Let all see how a wolf thinks. They are strange creatures.

Hub, how do you know that God did not send Tom Norris to find the 1888 documents and help the church understand the Gospel? Did he tell you that during your Morning Prayer ritual?

In hindsight, Dr. Ford was obviously sent to help the SDA’s understand the Gospel. How was he treated? Did you listen to him? Of course not. Gospel Reformers are ALWAYS rejected and persecuted. This is the pattern of history, starting with Christ…

What kind of reform were you looking for? The kind where nothing really changes and all the issues are hidden and censored? Like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic? What you advocate is worthless and doomed. What I advocate is paradigm changing and salvific.

So that was a nice try Hub, but the wolves don’t have any say in how they are to be chased away. Sorry.

Adventist Reform is here to stay. And so too is the Gospel and the critical need for honest and genuine reform within the Adventist Community. Too bad that the TSDA’s do not want Gospel Reform, nor do they have any intention of repenting of the IJ or tithe, much less for 1888 or Glacier View. So be it. They can follow the Jews to hell.

Then a new Adventist Movement will rise up and Gospel eschatology will go forward regardless. Adventism will be reformed, one way or another, and it will go forward, with our without the TSDA’s. This paradigm shift cannot be stopped.

Hub said: You mention some things in Adventism that you object to. Could you possibly accept the possibility that there are some Adventists who need just that approach?

Tom said: Ha! So some SDA’s “need” a false Gospel and a mythical Celestial Judgment way out in deep space? Is that what you are saying? What kind of logic are you using here?

Although many SDA’s think they “need” to embrace OC tithing, the Sabbath, and the IJ, this is just because their leaders have indoctrinated them into false doctrine. Just like in every church teaches their people that Sunday is true and that there will be a secret rapture, etc. People only believe doctrine as their leaders teach them. And the SDA’s are full of false doctrine from their dishonest and incompetent leaders.

Do SDA’s really “need” to embrace the garbage of TA, or is it that they just don’t have the good sense, education, or courage to understand truth? Poor SDA’s, they have followed their blind leaders and now both have fallen in the ditch and they can’t get up.

Hub said: Life is a many faceted situation. Some people need and respond to a very simple gospel.

Tom said: Ha! If the Gospel is so “simple,” why did Jesus’ apostles not understand it? Even after the cross, the leading apostles still misunderstood and distorted the Gospel. Which is why Paul had to publicly condemn both Peter and James!

Then, all during the long ages of the church, the religious leaders continued to misunderstand the Gospel, even as the reformation became a battle to reestablish the Gospel in the church. Thus the pattern of history refutes this notion that the Gospel is simple to understand. The facts show otherwise, even as Jesus teaches that his Gospel and his Gospel Sabbath are “hidden” from the religious leaders by the will of God.

There is only one Gospel. Those that are saved will obtain Eternal Life only through this doctrine. Any that try to gain access into the Kingdom of God must have the correct Gospel or else. The SDA’s have a false Gospel, and thus they are in great danger.

There is only one Gospel. Too bad that the SDA’s have NEVER embraced the correct version! But they have only fooled themselves. Not heaven.

Hub said: Many Ethiopians, not even knowing how to read, will be saved in the Kingdom. Yet there are others who need a detailed and sophisticated understanding of the Bible, or they will be swept away by philosophy and speculation.

Tom said: Stop the double-talk. Jesus teaches that “many” who think they are Christians, are no such thing. He also teaches that the prostitutes are more likely to be saved than those that claim to be religious and righteous.

There is only one Gospel, and you have not found the genuine doctrine as yet. You are a modern day Judaizer, complete with tithe paying and OC Sabbath keeping. Unless the TSDA’s repent, they are all as doomed, as were the unbelieving Jews and those of the Circumcision Party.

Hub said: As for the IJ, Tithe, EGW, the Sabbath, etc -- There are good reasons for each. Are these required for salvation? I am not the judge. I do believe that they are required to avoid being deceived.

Tom said: What “good reasons” can there be for the church to follow false doctrine? There are no good reasons or excuses for the church to ever follow one false doctrine, much less many.

I think the TSDA’s have lost control of their minds. They are not rational enough to understand the Word or discuss the issues coherently. They have lost the ability to “judge” between right and wrong, leaving them unable to understand the “requirements for salvation.”

Hub, you are a deceived SDA Pharisee.

Pay attention: Today, ANYONE that embraces the IJ or Tithe, or the OC Sabbath, DOES NOT understand the Gospel correctly. They are Judaizers, standing condemned for all to see. This is why the SDA’s must repent.

Hub, look in the mirror; you are an old man. If you die in your present state of legalism and theological confusion, you will be lost. Period.

Hub said: Do you remember George Mueller, who supported a total of 18,000 orphans on prayer alone? His method was to begin the day reading the Bible, slowly and meditatively. He would pray as he read -- he speaking through prayer, and God speaking through the Bible. I looked at my own devotional life, formal and repetitive. I knew it was not adequate. So I made a change about a month ago.

Tom said: First off, GM was not an apostle, nor a NT scholar, so why bring him up as a source for this discussion?

Second, this discussion is not about your private prayer life or about your personal attempts to improve your sanctification. Nor does this topic have anything to do with the issues.

Third, Jesus teaches that we are not to place our prayer life on public display or discussion.

Matt. 6:5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

Matt. 6:6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

So whatever “change” you have made in your prayer life, it is not working. You need to pray for help to better understand the Gospels, and to repent of TA. If you refuse to make such a prayer, how can it be answered? And if it is not answered, you are doomed.

So stop giving out advice about prayer or anything else until you learn the Gospel correctly.

Hub said: First thing in the morning I turn on my computer, and bring up WordSearth with the KJV on the left pane, and the Amplified Bible and the NIV on the right pane.

Tom said: The first thing any true believer should do in the morning is thank God for Eternal Life. There is no need to start searching the Bible for this or that text to pump up some faith to make it through the day.

Those that are saved will rejoice in their Gospel salvation, while those that have a false Gospel will be obsessed with guilt and ritual. Thus they will always be striving for God’s approval and for “what they think they need.” They don’t understand that they need to repent of their false Gospel and learn how to read the Words of Jesus correctly.

Hub said: Then I put my arms on the desk and pray for what I know I need for the day, and for wisdom from His Word. Then I read. I started at first with Matthew and would read as fast as I could understand, using my KJV (hardcopy) Bible, and checking with the other translations where needed for further understanding.

Tom said: Ha! What do you think you need for the day? Faith in the IJ? Power to refute Adventist Reform? More skill at double-talk? Do you also light candles as part of your sanctification ritual?

This is too funny, and sad. You remind me of the Jews. They too were obsessed with the scriptures, obedience to the law and the Sabbath, and with prayer, even as they hated the Gospel and murdered their Christ. So the TSDA’s are just like the Jews.

Hub said: I did not read for material for my website, nor to prepare the Sabbath School lesson, nor for the "Bible Year." I had no goal to read three chapters, but just went as fast as the spirit led.

Tom said: Ha! So you think the Spirit is leading you? Sorry to be the one to tell you different. It is a false spirit that leads one into false doctrine. It is the spirit if Satan that leads one away from the Gospel and away from honestly dealing with the Word.

The TSDA’s exhibit all the gifts of this false spirit with their endless double-talk, diversions, and lies. Thus a false spirit has blinded your mind so that you cannot comprehend what is true and salvific. But yet, you think the real Spirit is guiding you. Such delusion is fatal unless you can somehow find a way to repent.

Hub said: In doing this I have learned some things from familiar verses that I have seen many times. It has been a help and an encouragement.

Tom said: Those who think they need to pass the IJ, and are looking for encouragement to this end, are blind and lost. Hub, what you need to learn is the Gospel. But this will never happen so long as you hold on to the long list of SDA doctrines.

Your failure to repent has kept you from understanding the Word and the Gospel, and thus you will be lost unless you personally understand the Gospel and repent. Sorry to discourage your efforts at Sanctification, but unless you better understand the Gospel and JBF, you will be banished from the Kingdom of God regardless of all your spiritual exploits.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;

Hub said: I have reached Colossians chapter 2 by this morning.

Tom said: Hub, do you know what you are reading? All those that try to read the scriptures need help to understand what they mean. Thus, whoever helps us has a great influence on our interpretation. Because the TSDA’s have allowed some very dishonest and incompetent men to explain the Gospel Story to them, they are left with a worthless and false Gospel.

Acts 8:30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

Acts 8:31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Those who get their view of the Bible from the White Estate and the many SDA talking heads, will never be able to understand the Bible correctly. Those that allow Amazing Facts to color their view of the Gospel will certainly end up with much false doctrine.

For example, the book of Colossians references the weekly Sabbath. But the SDA’s don’t like how this text reads, so they have decided to change its meaning and make it refer to the ceremonial Sabbaths in order to protect their obsession with the OC Sabbath.

It is blasphemy to make such dishonest changes to the NT.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=242

So what good does it do anyone to read the NT, if the words can be so easily changed and manipulated? I suggest that you read the NT with the help of those that understand it. Not with the help of those who have it all wrong.

Hub said: Maybe you are already doing something like this -- let us hear about it. If you would like to start doing something, pray that God will lead you to just what is right for you. Is this a good idea for you? Probably not. Just what works for me. You will have to work out what works best for you.

Tom said: Ha! Guess what Hub? Your little study plan is not working for you. Why? Because you still don’t understand the Gospel. You are still full of false doctrine.

Study and pray all you want. This is what the Jews also did, even as they rejected the Gospel at the same time. You are doing the very same thing.

So please, don’t start lecturing anyone about how to pray or read the Bible, because it has not helped you as you claim. Those that are so confused about the Gospel, even to the point of dismissing the evidence that condemns them, have no right to teach anyone about Eternal Life.

Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one 1aproselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Hub said: Tom Norris, I went back and reviewed your comments to me. I found that my theology was twisted and my beliefs false. No description and no documentation. Really nothing for me to discuss as your mind was already made up.

Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. First off, let’s continue to be “brutally frank.”

You are an avowed enemy of the Gospel and Adventist Reform; you are an old wolf in sheep’s clothing that has been exposed for all to see back on JR’s site.

As a loyal TSDA, you have a very different view of the Gospel and church history from Dr. Ford and Tom Norris. Let’s not pretend otherwise. And let’s not pretend that there is any comprise between these two paradigms.

Second, I think you need to go back and review this discussion more carefully:

What you were really trying to do is take this Forum down the dark path of TA. So I protested.

What all the TSDA’s have wanted is to find a way to divert, dilute, or stop AR. This is why you would like to see “strict monitoring” of this site. This is why Pastor Don wanted JR to give him the AT site. But it will take more than shutting down or controlling web sites to stop AR.

The way to stop AR is to meet it head on and defeat it point by point. But this will never happen because TA is wrong. In fact, AR has defeated every point from TA, even as no scholar or church leader dares enter into public debate about the issues. After 10 years of online discussion, on a number of sites, TA has been proven wrong and impossible. This is how it still stands today.

So if the TSDA’s can’t win this discussion honestly and fairly, (and they cannot), then they will try to win by censorship, double-talk, and trickery. This is how their darkened minds operate, just like the Jews that also refused the Gospel.

Third: Not enough Information from Tom Norris:

Hub, we have had numerous discussions in the past about tithe, the IJ, and the Gospel, etc on JR’s site. Have you forgotten?

In addition, there are a number of threads on this site and the All Experts site that discuss these same issues. I suggest that you read them if you really want to know why your views are so worthless and false.

I know you have read this material because we went over it many times on the old AT site. The fact you don’t like it is beside the point. You need to stop pretending that you can’t understand why I repudiate your views. Or that we have not had much discussion over the years.

You know exactly what I am saying and why; you just don’t want to admit that you are so horribly wrong all these years. Even though you have not been able to sustain your false doctrines, you refuse to repent. But that is your problem, not mine.

Stop saying that Tom Norris has not given you sufficient “description and documentation” about why your views are wrong. Stop complaining that you don’t have enough information to understand Adventist Reform.

Your complaints are not true and everyone knows it. What is true is this: Your mind is fully made up to defend TA until the day you die. It seems that there is nothing that Tom Norris or Dr. Ford could ever say that would lead you to repent of your many false views. So be it.

Just as the majority of Jews refused to embrace the Gospel, so too many SDA’s. Eternal Life is denied to these confused Sabbatarians that opted for the Old Covenant when a Better Covenant was right in front of their faces. How sad and fatal.

Hub said: However, I was not kind in my response, and I beg your pardon. I needed to show Christian love, which I did not. So please forgive.

Tom said: Hub, you are trying to repent for the wrong thing. I never thought you were unkind in your remarks, so there is nothing to forgive about this point.

Being a TSDA, I understand that you live life with very high standards, (meaning impossible) so that you can pass the IJ. However, such cultic theology produces much guilt and paranoia, driving the legalist further into false doctrine and irrational behavior. This situation can only be cured by the very Gospel you reject.

Consequently, you need to repent for being so wrong as to claim that I have not explained my views to you. You know this is not true. So why did you make such a false testimony? Can you repent for the correct errors?

You may not agree with my views or accept my evidence, but you cannot claim that I have not given you plenty of data from which to make a decision.

Furthermore, and most importantly, you need to repent for your false views about the Gospel, Tithe, the IJ, and a long list of additional errors. THIS is the kind of confession and repentance that heaven is waiting to hear from SDA’s. Not this made up nonsense about not being “kind” enough. This is a false and diversionary form of repentance and it is not worth two hoots. But nice try!

Those that refuse to repent of their false Gospel, and false Sabbath, determining to keep practicing tithing and OC Sabbath keeping, have fallen from grace. They will not be saved, and they have only themselves to blame. They were shown the truth, but they turned away, pretending not to understand. Just like the Jews!

Such games are fatal, especially for those getting on in years. So beware Hub, you are living on borrowed time, as we all are. Who knows how many days you and others have left to understand the Gospel or be lost forever?

Pay attention Hub: You do not understand the Gospel. If you continue on with your false doctrines you are a lost man. It is just this simple. I suggest that you stop praying to your delusional, Christ and try to find the real Jesus of scripture. Otherwise you are a dead man.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris, who has little patience with the double-talking, TSDA Judaizers

hfsturges · 07-03-10 4:24 pm

"... but whosover shall say, 'Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.'" Matthew 5:22

george · 07-03-10 6:03 pm

Ted Wilson said in his opening salvo, "While the Bible is paramount our final authority of truth, the SOP provides clear inspired council to aid our application of Bible truth."

I'm still reeling.

Dexter · 07-04-10 10:30 am

Sirje,

Not sure what your source was for the quote, but it is misleading. The actual quote, taken from http://news.adventist.org/2010/07/sabba … story.html , reads thus:

Additionally, Wilson also encouraged Adventists to remember the special gift God has given the Adventist movement.
"Accept the Spirit of Prophecy as one of the greatest gifts given to the Seventh-day Adventist Church not just for the past but even more importantly for the future," he said, referring to the writings of church co-founder Ellen White. "While the Bible is paramount in our estimation as the ultimate authority and final arbiter of truth, the Spirit of Prophecy provides clear, inspired council to aid our application of Bible truth. It is a heaven-sent guide to instruct the church in how to carry out its mission. It is a reliable theological expositor of the Scriptures." The Spirit of Prophecy is to be read, believed, applied and promoted."
However, he added, "it is not to be used as a "club" to beat people over the head, but it is to be regarded and employed as a marvelous blessing to direct God's church in the last days of this earth's history."

You may continue your reeling. I just wanted to give the correct quote.

hfsturges · 07-04-10 2:11 pm

Beware of a “Reformation” to the SDA Church!

Does the SDA Church need reformation? Do we each one need reformation in our lives? Do YOU need reformation? The answers are “Yes! Yes! Yes!” What will be the form of that reformation? It is Ellen White who has spoken about reformation, and it is to her writings that we need to go to find out what she said.

First of all, we must come closer to Christ. To model our lives on His life. To separate from sin and from the world and make Him first in our lives. Second this will include coming back to what the pioneers of the church have established as the pillars of the faith. And third, this will require a Bible knowledge that will help us to avoid error and suppositions of all kinds. Here is what she said about reformation:

“The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result?
1) The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded.
2) Our religion would be changed.
3) The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error.
4) A new organization would be established.
5) Books of a new order would be written.
6) A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced.
7) The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work.
8) The Sabbath, of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it.
9) Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement.
10) The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure.” Testimonies for the Church containing letters to Physicians and Ministers, 1904, p. 53-55.
“Satan is striving continually to bring in fanciful suppositions in regard to the sanctuary, degrading the wonderful representations of God and the ministry of Christ for our salvation into something that suits the carnal mind. He removes its presiding power from the hearts of believers, and supplies its place with fantastic theories invented to make void the truths of the atonement, and destroy our confidence in the doctrines which we have held sacred since the third angel's message was first given. Thus he would rob us of our faith in the very message that has made us a separate people, and has given character and power to our work.” --Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 17 (1905). Evangelism 225.

george · 07-04-10 6:17 pm

Dexter,
Thank you for the correction. It seems that when you read this paragraph, it's clear that the "Bible is paramount as the ultimate authority and final arbiter of truth..." but when you only hear those words, it may sound like the Bible is paramount, BUT, as the final arbiter of truth, the SOP provides clear, inspired council..."

tom_norris · 07-05-10 10:53 am

As usual, “Hub the foolish” refuses to deal with the points that were posted.

Not only will he not repent of Traditional Adventism, he makes a futile attempt to lash out, using the proof text method, to claim that he has been treated unfairly and mislabeled by Tom Norris.

This type of childish and diversionary behavior took place all the time back on JR’s site. So for those that wanted to see the foolish TSDA’s embarrassed and silenced once more, here it is- at poor Hub’s expense. Except this time there is no JR to jump in and try to help his friend, who has opposed Adventist Reform from the first post.

I wonder if any other TSDA’s will come to his aid? That would happen a lot at the old site. When one TSDA went down, (which they all did), another would rush in to try and pull the same proof texting stunts in the hope that Tom Norris had gone to sleep. Round and round this theological contest would go, until there were none left to defend TA. It was destroyed for all to see, and so it remains for all that are honest with the evidence.

Even the verbose and well-published Goldstein retreated in total defeat, leaving a clear example for all others. There is no defense for the IJ or tithe, or this false hermeneutic that features a manipulated and legalistic Ellen White. There is no defense for a false Gospel and the WRONG, 7th day SABBATH.

No wonder the TSDA’s don’t post over here very much, their foolish views are always annihilated for all to see. They dislike losing, and being told to repent all the time. But too bad, this is their only real option.

So like I said, they can stay away forever, unless they want to accept the facts and stop abusing the Word. Then they can all come and get educated. Otherwise, there are only here to push their own evil agenda, which doctrines have already been shown to be worthless and wrong.

Regardless, Hub, the longtime defender of the IJ and tithe, etc is once again pretending that his views are correct, even though he is unable to defend them under cross examination. He couldn’t do it at the past sites and nothing has changed since. So let’s examine what this foolish TSDA is now saying.

A Foolish SDA

Hub is a very loyal and very foolish TSDA. He claims that it is a violation of Christian doctrine for Tom Norris to call him a fool. He shows off his great knowledge of the NT by putting forth the Words of Jesus to support this claim;

"... but whosover shall say, 'Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.'" Matthew 5:22.

Does Hub have a point? Does the NT teach that we are not to call anyone a fool, or to accuse anyone of acting foolishly?

Answer: The NT does NOT TEACH it wrong to call someone a fool or to call out anyone for acting foolishly. As usual, this text is being misapplied and taken out of context, which is what all TSDA’s must do to support their twisted theology.

So hub, the fool, has made himself twice a fool. In an attempt to divert the discussion away from the last few posts that condemned him, he invokes the words of Jesus in a misguided and self-serving defense that only further underscores the charge that the TSDA’s don’t know how to read the Bible. They really don’t understand the Gospel teaching of Jesus or Paul. Nor do they care to stop using this worthless proof text method, which will make anyone look like a fool who uses it.

The problem with the TSDA’s, and all others as well, is their failure to read the scriptures honestly. Most all Laodiceans twist the NT to make it say what they want it to say, as opposed to what it really says. This is against the fundamentals of the Protestants and the Adventists.

Thus the TSDA’s are frauds. Cultic Pretenders, Judaizers, enemies of the Gospel. They don’t want to really understand the Bible, just make it conform to their own ideas. How foolish! They are great blasphemers.

Prov. 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding,
But only in revealing his own mind.

The foolish TSDA’s are famous for making the Word reflect their own darkened minds, even as they censor those, like Dr. Ford, who are honest brokers of the Gospel; world class Protestant experts of the scriptures. Thus the TSDA’s are blind on purpose, just like the Jews who failed to understand God. They have foolishly persecuted those that could help them understand.

Jer. 4:22 “For My people are foolish,
They know Me not;
They are stupid children
And have no understanding.
They are shrewd to do evil,
But to do good they do not know.”

How can it be wrong to label a person a fool when this is what the Bible does? This is what Jesus does, and so too Paul?

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Luke 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’

Luke 24:25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!

1Cor. 15:36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;

1Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.

How can it be wrong to do what Jesus and the apostles do? The NT teaches that Paul is our example and pattern. Which means that using the term “fool” or calling someone “foolish” is not forbidden or wrong as the TSDA’s pretend.

Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

2Th. 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

2Th. 3:9 not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

In Galatians, the book that overturns the false, TSDA Gospel, Paul calls the Galatian Church “foolish” -twice, even as this term is used in his other writings and that of the other apostles.

Gal. 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Eph. 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

2Tim. 2:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

Titus 3:3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

1Pet. 2:15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

So we can see that it is hardly wrong to use the term foolish or the word fool. Which means that it was very foolish of Hub to try and use Mat 5: 22 to defend his errors. Anyone that embraces the false Gospel of the Galatians is a great fool, even a condemned one.

Foolish SDA’s, they had better repent and correct the record before it is too late. There is no defense for their false doctrines and dishonest church history.

So Hub is a fool that does not understand the Gospel. Even a double fool; for abusing the Word in such a dishonest, proof texting manner that changes the meaning of Jesus words.

I suggest you repent for your false, proof texting hermeneutic, which is the foundation of TA. Learn how to read the Word honestly and properly. Then instead of being “foolish” you will be called “wise.”

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not 1act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”

Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;

Matt. 7:29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.

The Fool of Matthew 5: 22

The word “fool” in Matt 5: 22 is a bad translation. Jesus first uses the Aramaic term Raca, (You good for nothing), which is an expression of contempt, before he also uses a term, that in the Greek, translates to fool. (Jesus spoke Aramaic). But it does not mean what it appears for a number of reasons.

Matt. 5:22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

This issue under point in Matt 5:22 was tongue murder.

Thus the term Raca is a scornful word, and comes from pride, "Thou empty fellow;" it is the language of that which Solomon calls proud wrath (Prov. 21:24), which tramples upon our brother-disdains to set him even with the dogs of our flock. This people who knoweth not the law, is cursed, is such language, Jn. 7:49.

(2.) Thou fool, is a spiteful word, and comes from hatred; looking upon him, not only as mean and not to be honored, but as vile and not to be loved; "Thou wicked man, thou reprobate." The former speaks of a man without sense, this (in scripture language) speaks a man without grace; the more the reproach touches his spiritual condition, the worse it is; the former is a haughty taunting of our brother, this is a malicious censuring and condemning of him, as abandoned of God.

This is a breach of the sixth commandment; malicious slanders and censures are poison under the tongue, that kills secretly and slowly; bitter words are as arrows that would suddenly (Ps. 64:3), or as a sword in the bones. The good name of our neighbor, which is better than life, is thereby stabbed and murdered; and it is an evidence of such an ill-will to our neighbor as would strike at his life, if it were in our power.

http://biblebrowser.com/matthew/5-22.htm

The word “moros” is the basis for the English word “moron,” but if applied in English as an adjective, the more correct word would “moronic.” However, lest we be misunderstood, the meaning of the word “moronic” in English does not exactly correspond with the Biblical Greek word “moros.”

In Matthew 5:22, Jesus illustrates the Greek word “moros” as a defamatory expression, not in its simple use as the proper adjective that it is.

There is a great difference in saying “You Fool!” in the sense of a personal defamation of someone and “you are being foolish.” In most cases, the latter is the way the Greek word is used and it is proper to use it as such, if the circumstances call for it, in order to show or warn one of a foolish course of action or thought, or to point out that which is foolish.

http://ac.reslight.net/archives/40.html

The Greek word had two definitions, very different. One was very similar to our present day primary definition, meaning foolish, deficient in sense, judgement, understanding, etc.

That is not the usage of it in Matthew 5:22.

By reading the entire verse, we see Jesus warning the Jews, to whom he was speaking, of the laws of the Jewish judicial system. The Jews have a basic law of "The dignity and freedom of man" and although this law is pertaining primarily to euthanasia, it also reflects their longstanding attitude towards the "dignity" of man.

Under the Old Law, even to "hate" your brother without cause was punishable by the local Sanhedrin of 23 magistrates.

To call one Raca, (vain fellow, worthless, shallow brained, etc) was in danger of facing the Grand Sanhedrin of 72 magistrates, 6 from each tribe.

But to call one a "fool" when enraged, (and as the other two, "without cause") meant that you were subject to be burned to death.

This use of "fool" was used to accuse one of being an apostate, rebel against God, Godless, etc and a person guilty of such was himself subject to be burned to death. Jesus refers to the fire of the valley of Hinnon, which was sometimes used as the means of punishment.

http://searchwarp.com/swa549370-Thou-Fo … w-5-22.htm

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