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A Reply to Tom Norris
Tom Norris in his pointless insults of all that disagree with him is essentially calling them “fools.” Jesus in Matthew says that a person who calls his brother a “fool” is in danger of hell fire. Tom admits to be an Adventist, so we are brothers. How should brothers treat each other? If they disagree, it is reasonable discuss the issue and try to come to an agreement. But even this must be done in Christian love.
**“Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;” Romans 12:10 (KJV)
Lets look at Tom’s list of verses that use the word “fool.”
Prov. 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind.
**Understanding can come only in patient explanation.
The foolish TSDA’s are famous for making the Word reflect their own darkened minds, even as they censor those, like Dr. Ford, who are honest brokers of the Gospel; world class Protestant experts of the scriptures. Thus the TSDA’s are blind on purpose, just like the Jews who failed to understand God. They have foolishly persecuted those that could help them understand.
**Dr. Ford has been shown to believe very differently from SDA teachings. This is his right, of course, but it is not honest for a person to believe and teach a different doctrine and yet call himself an Adventist.
Jer. 4:22 “For My people are foolish,
They know Me not;
They are stupid children
And have no understanding.
They are shrewd to do evil,
But to do good they do not know.”
**This cannot be said of the SDA scholars. There is abundant scholarly literature showing honest and insightful knowledge of Bible truth. And “doing good to others?” The Adventist church does much good in their mission work, hospitals, schools and churches
How can it be wrong to label a person a fool when this is what the Bible does? This is what Jesus does, and so too Paul?
**The Bible uses the word “fool” usually to describe those who refuse to believe, and even oppose the gospel. By definition, they are not “brothers.” Jesus did use strong language, like “hypocrites” to expose the Pharisees, but He did so with tears, and only on rare occasions, not constantly.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
**This is not talking about a brother, but on those who refused to believe.
Luke 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’
**This man had no concern for eternal salvation. He was not a brother, but rather an “idolater” in worshiping material things.
Luke 24:25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
**Actually, one who is “slow of heart to believe” is an unbeliever, and will believe only when he is forced to believe by events. He is not a brother.
1Cor. 15:36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
**In context, Paul is addressing those who refuse to believe, raising impossible questions.
1Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
**In context, Paul is showing that worldly philosophy that refuses to believe in God is foolishness. To be a Christian was foolishness to worldly philosophers but wisdom in the eyes of God.
How can it be wrong to do what Jesus and the apostles do? The NT teaches that Paul is our example and pattern. Which means that using the term “fool” or calling someone “foolish” is not forbidden or wrong as the TSDA’s pretend.
**Jesus said that to call a brother a fool was wrong (Matthew 5:22). Jesus and Paul have repeatedly called upon church members to “love one another.” Jesus and Paul did not call Christian believers “fools.
Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
**If you follow Paul and Jesus’ example you will not call a fellow believer a fool, even if he disagrees. And Jesus on several occasions did disagree with certain of his disciples, but he did not call them fools.
2Th. 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
2Th. 3:9 not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.
**See above.
In Galatians, the book that overturns the false, TSDA Gospel, Paul calls the Galatian Church “foolish” -twice, even as this term is used in his other writings and that of the other apostles.
**The Galatians had turned away from the gospel of Jesus Christ, and returned to Jewish customs and the ceremonial law. This was a denial of Christ, and would lead them to lose their souls. Paul used strong language, but at this point they were no longer “brothers.” Even at that Paul carried on an extensive dialog with them, calling them in love to return to the gospel.
Gal. 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
**See above.
Eph. 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
**Paul did not call them foolish, but rather warned them against being foolish. He strongly taught them to leave off the old sins of the worldly people around them, and what they themselves used to do. He called them to “walk circumspectly” according to the will of God.
2Tim. 2:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
**Tom, you should be interested in this. Paul is not calling anyone a fool, but advising against foolish speculations, which were apparently a problem at that time.
Titus 3:3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
**This uses the word “foolish” but does NOT call any one a “fool.” I think you would agree that anyone who did what the verse says, is a fool (with cause).
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
**See under 2 Tim 2:23 above.
James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
**A person who believes in “cheap grace” is denying Christ. He is a fool “with cause.”
1Pet. 2:15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
**Paul is here teaching that we must be good citizens. We must keep the laws of the statet “under God” meaning that we “ought to obey God rather than man.” This is the will of God. By so doing the “ignorant” opposers of the Gospel are silenced.
So we can see that it is hardly wrong to use the term foolish or the word fool. Which means that it was very foolish of Hub to try and use Mat 5: 22 to defend his errors. Anyone that embraces the false Gospel of the Galatians is a great fool, even a condemned one.
**The false gospel of the Galatians was to return to the ceremonial law, circumcision, and rituals. It was to deny what Christ had done on the cross. Paul plainly said this was foolish, but it was not an insult. He patiently and clearly and lovingly taught them what was right.
Tom, I have taken time to read every verse, and most of them in context. I would hope that you will do the same before you present another long list of verses. I have a concordance too, and know how easy it is to just develop a list of verses. So, please be sure each verse applies to the issue at hand.
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Just when it seemed the TSDA’s had stopped trying to defend their foolish confusion, along comes a new defender of the IJ and Traditional Adventism.
Good for them! Let’s see what this TSDA has to offer? Let’s also assume that he is an honest seeker of Gospel truth. A person not afraid to confess false doctrine when it becomes obvious from scripture.
Dublin said: Tom Norris in his pointless insults of all that disagree with him is essentially calling them “fools.”
Tom replied: There are many SDA’s who think Dr. Ford and Tom Norris are wrong. Especially when they hear these views for the first time. This does not make them fools, just misinformed.
The vast majority who hear that the IJ was never a “pillar” in the Three Angels Messages, (as all were taught), and that Old Covenant Sabbath keeping is wrong and so too tithing, and abstinence, etc., are shocked into disbelief. The initial reaction is to “disagree.” This is fine.
Such reaction is normative. How could the indoctrinated act any other way? But such initial disagreement is not foolish nor does it make anyone a fool. Rather, it is wisdom to move cautiously and carefully. Otherwise, every wind of doctrine would be too easily embraced.
But at some point, say after 20 or 30 years, when the initial shock has worn off, and men of stature, like Raymond Cottrell confess the error of Glacier View, there must be an honest re- examination of the issues. At some point, the search for truth, and justice, must take hold, even as all the foolish myths are removed, and the corruption stopped.
No Search for Truth
The problem with the SDA’s is this: what was once healthy skepticism about the issues has morphed, not into a necessary search for truth, but into a dishonest, irrational, and divisive defense of what is false, mythical, and wrong.
THIS is very foolish, stupid, and blasphemous. This bad Laodicean attitude is destroying the SDA church, and should it continue, the Denomination is doomed. It may already be too late?
O foolish TSDA’s, why have you allowed the White Estate to make fools of you? Why have you been so foolish as to let the leaders promote one false doctrine after another, even the fraud of tithe, which has created a heretical hierarchy that has seized money and the power to promote an anti-Gospel empire that is forbidden by the teachings of Jesus?
The SDA’s were very foolish to reject the Gospel in 1888, and they were even more foolish to hide this history so that it could be repeated in Takoma Park and Silver Spring. In hindsight it is easy to look back and see that Glacier View was the 20th century repeat of 1888. But the leaders are still pretending not to understand the issues of either, even as they suppress documents, censor discussion, and refuse to deal with the issues.
This is very foolish and sinful behavior. And if the TSDA’s don’t like being called fools, then they need to repent to Dr. Ford and stop fighting the Gospel. Otherwise, the term sticks to them just like it stuck to the “foolish” Galatians.
Insults Have Meaning
In this discussion about Gospel Reform and church history, no insult or repudiation is pointless. No word, reference, or reply, is without meaning or purpose.
Remember, we are not the first to engage in a theological debate about the Gospel. This has been going on for a very long time, and it is far from over.
In fact, we must pay careful attention to the original Gospel debates of Jesus and the apostles in order to follow their proper example. I am sure that even the TSDA’s would agree.
Consequently, when we read the NT, we see Jesus calling the Pharisees all manner of nasty, “insulting” names, even as we later see Paul doing the same thing. These were not rare events, but normative and repeated responses to their religious critics.
The NT teaches that there is a place for “insults” and condemnation of false doctrine. It is normative, biblical, and practical. Any who think otherwise are showing their ignorance of the NT.
Those that preach the genuine Gospel must stand up and condemn, by name, and in public, any leaders that promote a false Gospel in the church. It is Gospel duty. There is no choice in such matters for those that understand Paul’s Gospel.
This is the nature of Protestant, Gospel reform. Which is why we also see the Reformers making many insults against the Pope and his false Gospel. This is the nature of Gospel debate and Reform. It is not for the faint of heart or the easily frightened.
Listen to the leaders of the apostolic church get insulted, condemned, and embarrassed by Paul because they embraced a “distorted Gospel.” Such action was hardly “pointless,” but in fact, was supported by the Holy Spirit and the will of God.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Not only did Paul rail against false theology in the church, he also defamed and insulted all those Christians, the TSDA’s of their day, who embraced a false Gospel. Not even the top leaders were spared Paul’s condemnation and his charge that they were all acting like fools.
In fact, Paul called the TSDA’s of his day worse than fools. He called them “dogs,” a major insult in the ancient world. To call someone a dog is worse than calling them a fool. This was about as low as it gets. Although the term Paul coined for these enemies of the Gospel, the Circumcision Party, was also a great slander and insult in the Gentile word.
Jewish circumcision repulsed the Greco-Roman world. They hated it, and thus to identify any Gentile Christian group with Jewish circumcision was a great slander and cultural offense. Paul knew this. He knew that the Gentile world hated this primitive, painful doctrine, which they viewed as uncivilized. Thus he invented this insulting name, The Circumcision Party to insult, embarrass, and ridicule these false teachers of the Gospel.
So there is a good reason why the Gospel Story is full of carefully targeted insults. All that claim to embrace the Gospel should understand this fact, and make sure that they are not taking any positions that would condemn them as being foolish and wrong.
Moreover, Paul then tells his listeners that they should follow his attitude, warning them to beware of those with a false Gospel.
Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
Phil. 3:18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
Listen to Paul insult the enemies of the Gospel. There should be no doubt that we are to follow his example and defend the Gospel from frauds and fools.
Phil. 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.
Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
Phil. 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
Phil. 3:4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
Phil. 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
Phil. 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
Phil. 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Phil. 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
Phil. 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
Let all understand, the TSDA’s are the equivalent of the Judaizers. They have a false Gospel where our sanctification determines and controls our salvation. They are obsessed with the Law, just like the foolish Circumcision Party. Which is why they set up a mythical Celestial Judgment way out in deep space, to see if their Sanctification has made them safe to save.
The SDA doctrines of tithe, the OC Sabbath, and the IJ, (a judgment of our sanctification), are the same as ritual circumcision that Paul condemned. Had the Galatians been so foolish as to try and embrace tithing, then Paul would have condemned them for that doctrine as well as circumcision. But they were not that foolish. They never pulled such an impossible stunt, but had they tried, Paul would have condemned them, just like he would the SDA’s today.
The SDA’s have embraced the Old Covenant view of the Gospel. They are Judaizers. They are like the Galatian Church that listened to the false Gospel of Peter and James.
This exactly what the RCC later embraced, and thus they are the Gentile children of the Galatians. They have embraced the same “distorted” and false Gospel of Peter and James.
Dublin said: Jesus in Matthew says that a person who calls his brother a “fool” is in danger of hell fire.
Tom said: Have you ever read Matt 23? Do you understand that Matt 5: 22 is a reference to Old Covenant excommunication? It is not about “calling” someone a fool as you say.
Jesus condemned his enemies by calling them many insulting names, including the term “fool.” How could he lambaste the Jewish leaders like he did in public, but yet at the same time teach that it was wrong for others to do the same thing?
This is absurd and makes no sense. Was Jesus a great hypocrite or are you the one who has made an error?
In this one passage alone, Matt 23, Jesus called his religious enemies the following:
“Sons of hell, blind guides, fools, blind men, hypocrites, lawless and self-indulgent robbers, gullible, greedy, unclean and full of dead men’s bones, murderers, guilty and condemned to hell, a brood of vipers and serpents.
Wow! Did you get all that? If not read it again and repent for this absurd interpretation of Matt 5: 22. It is wrong and those who insist otherwise are fools.
The TSDA’s would rather make Jesus out to be a hypocrite, then just admit that they have misunderstood his teaching on this point and many others.
While no one likes to be called a “fool” this is what the TSDA’s are. This is what anyone is who is so dishonest about the Gospel.
Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one 1aproselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt. 23:16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’
Matt. 23:17 “You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?
Matt. 23:23 ¶ “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
Matt. 23:24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Matt. 23:25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
Matt. 23:26 “You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
Matt. 23:27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
Matt. 23:28 “So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matt. 23:29 ¶ “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Matt. 23:30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
Matt. 23:31 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
Matt. 23:32 “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
Matt. 23:33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
As usual, the TSDA’s are demonstrating their lack of sound hermeneutics. Mat 5:22 is not being used correctly by this crowd, or within the confines of its historical context. They seem too lazy to try and figure out what Jesus is really saying. Choosing instead whatever interpretation best suits their cultic mind at the time.
Today, it is an easy thing to look up any text online, and see what it is really saying in the original language, as well as get a quick summery from many different perspectives. Had you and Hub done this, you would not now be caught misusing the Word. You were both very foolish to skip this research, and now you are going to have to wise up and repent. The text does not say what you claim.
http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/topic/976
I suggest that you go back and read my post that deals with this text and educate yourself on how to better understand the teachings of Jesus. The NT is an ancient work that cannot be read as if were not. It takes some real study and effort to comprehend the original meaning, much less to make a contemporary application.
D said: Tom admits to be an Adventist, so we are brothers. How should brothers treat each other? If they disagree, it is reasonable discuss the issue and try to come to an agreement. But even this must be done in Christian love.
Tom said: While all are brothers and sisters in the church, that assumes all have the same Gospel. If a “brother” is found to have a different Gospel, then we are not brothers at all. Then there is division in the church, not peace, even a Civil War, like the Reformation.
Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt. 10:35 “For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt. 10:36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
Matt. 10:37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Those that hold to a false Gospel are enemies of those that hold to the original faith of the NT. The one holding the correct Gospel is duty bound to curse the other so that all will know the true path to Eternal Life.
Moreover, you must have written your post before paying much attention to the real meaning of Mat 5: 22 that I posted. This text does not say what you and Hub, and many others think. And you need to go back and read that post more carefully.
You are trying to prove a hopeless point, that regardless, will not help defend the error of the IJ, or Tithe or the many additional errors of TA. These are the real issues under discussion. Not this minor point about calling someone names.
Do you think we are in grade school? Perhaps out in the playground playing a game?
No. This is an adult discussion about how to lose or obtain Eternal Life. I suggest you pay close attention, because at this point, the TSDA’s are losing the game.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopi … 9024#p9024
So you need to stop acting like a fool and stop using Matthew 5: 22 incorrectly. In fact, you need to retract what you said, because the text does not, not, not support your view, or that of “Hub the Foolish.” Sorry.
Dublin said: **“Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;” Romans 12:10 (KJV)
Tom said: Of course the church should love one another, this is the fulfilling of the law and one of the by-products of the Gospel. But it is not “love” to allow anyone to preach a false Gospel.
Neither love nor law supports or excuses false doctrine. This issue here is a false Gospel. Those in the church that refuse to be honest with the issues and repent for their false Gospel, are not to be shown love, but the door. This is required duty. They are to be strongly and publicly condemned, just like Paul did with the Galatians.
This confused reasoning about Mat 5: 22 will make Jesus a sinner, because he was very harsh with his fellow Jews.
Was Jesus wrong to say what he did in Matt 23? He was not kind at all to the Pharisees, even as he called them fools. But he was not trying to be kind. Nor should we when it comes to correcting false doctrine from the stubborn and rebellious.
There is a time to insult and condemn, and the NT makes it clear when, and under what circumstances such negative language is to be used. Only a fool would fail to comprehend this discussion and understand this point.
Paul must also be guilty of not being kind and loving, because he too insulted and railed against a large group within the apostolic church called the Circumcision Party. Although they were fellow Jews, (“brothers”) and Christians, he attacked them whenever he could, even calling them “dogs” and liars.
I have refrained from using such colorful apostolic language, but perhaps I have been too soft on the foolish TSDA’s? Maybe they need harsher language from Tom Norris?
Dublin said: Lets look at Tom’s list of verses that use the word “fool.”
Tom said: It is a mistake to use the scriptures for the purpose of defending false doctrine. Rather, you should be trying to figure out why those that understand the Gospel are calling the TSDA’s “fools.”
Before you try and prove your incorrect point, let me remind you that this discussion is not about who is nice and who is not. This little discussion about the use of the word fool, is very foolish and diversionary. It is a smokescreen for “Hub the foolish” to avoid dealing with the real issues, as well as the specific call for him to repent of Traditional Adventism.
So you can foolishly waste your time trying to deal with such minor points if you want, but there are far more important issues that need to be understood and resolved, like understanding the Gospel and church history correctly.
Dublin said: **Understanding can come only in patient explanation.
Tom said: Ha! If you understood how many times I have gone round and round with Hub, and many like him. He was on the old AT site and he was just as wrong and stubborn over there as he is here. He has learned nothing from those discussions, nor has he repented from any of his false views that he has been unable to sustain.
So he is not searching for truth like a “wise” man, but how to stop Gospel Reform in the church. This is very foolish and wrong.
As for “patience” there is a limited supply. This is why Jesus would get angry with the religious leaders of his day, and why Paul became furious with Peter and James, condemning them in public for all to see.
In Gospel Reform, there always comes a point when it is time make a decision. The preaching of the Gospel leads men and women to make a decision and face the consequences.
Those that fight against the Gospel, like Goldstein, or Hub, and all the TSDA’s, are to be condemned in the most blunt and public fashion. THIS is what the NT teaches and you are being very foolish to try and pretend otherwise. Even as you are being delusional for thinking that the false Gospel of the TSDA’s is valid and salvific. It is not.
Pay careful attention: Anyone today, who embraces OC Tithe paying and the OC Sabbath, does NOT understand the Gospel correctly. They are great fools.
Anyone that believes in the IJ, and thinks it wrong to drink real wine at the Eucharist has a very distorted Gospel that is worthless and wrong.
The SDA’s do NOT understand, nor do they embrace, the Protestant Gospel of the NT. This is a fact that cannot be refuted, least of all by the foolish and dishonest TSDA’s.
Dublin said: **Dr. Ford has been shown to believe very differently from SDA teachings. This is his right, of course, but it is not honest for a person to believe and teach a different doctrine and yet call himself an Adventist.
Tom said: Ha! Who has “shown” you that Dr. Ford has the wrong Gospel? Or that he does not know Adventist history?
Give me his or her name and let’s see what they are saying?
It could not have been any of the apostles, because they agree with Dr. Ford’s Gospel. So who is your authority on the teachings of Dr. Ford’s? On what basis do you judge him? Which religious leader have you foolishly followed in this matter?
Moreover, show us the specifics points where Dr. Ford’s views were so “very different” from SDA’s, that he had to be exiled?
You do know that Dr. Ford is a great supporter of the 7th day Sabbath for the church? And that he respects Ellen White and her gifts?
He also embraces the Three Angels Messages as a genuine, historic and prophetic Movement that was the work of God, even as he has practiced the Health Message all his life.
So how is this anti-Adventist?
Dr. Ford understands the essence of Historic Adventism and represents it much more correctly than those that ran him and the Gospel out of the Denomination. He understands both Adventist history and theology far better than the confused and dishonest TSDA’s. So your assumption, is only that, a foolish assumption that has never been proven by anyone, at any time.
In fact, we spent a lot of time discussing the IJ at the past two sites. Clifford Goldstein, the author of a small book about 1844, came online to join the discussion. He hated Dr. Ford’s theology and thought it all wrong.
However, when it came time to have a detailed discussion, he fell flat on his face and ran away. It turns out that Goldstein never found the IJ in the Bible. He was TOLD all these bad things about Dr. Ford, and then TOLD this myth about the IJ being a fundamental pillar, and that Ellen White supposedly supported it, blah, blah, and blah. But it was all a bunch of nonsense, myth, and rumor from the confused TSDA’s. And young Goldstein fell for it.
In other words, Goldstein, as a new SDA, knew nothing about the IJ, but then he was brainwashed, trained to parrot the slander that Dr. Ford was a heretic, and that he was exiled for cause.
Once online however, Goldstein soon discovered what he had been taught by the TSDA’s, could not be supported by the facts. Not only could it not be supported by the Bible, not even Ellen White, or the Pioneers supported Traditional Adventism, or the doctrine of the IJ as taught by the White Estate and the Review.
Don’t take my word for it. Read these and many other threads and see that Dr. Ford was correct about the IJ. It is not the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message, nor was it ever declared to be so by any 19th century SDA. Thus Dr. Ford is correct. Those who still think he was wrong are the greatest of fools.
See:
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1013659183
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166507859
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1023044579
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST14972
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=227
There is no IJ pillar in the Three Angels Messages. Period. It is a false judgment that is against the Gospel and against Historic Adventism, and against the real Judgment, which is the 2nd Coming. The IJ is incompatible and against the original and genuine version of the Three Angels Messages that can never be changed.
Dr. Ford, the Myth Buster
The IJ was correctly discovered by Dr. Ford to be a false doctrine. Such a blunt position, coming from a leading SDA theologian and Pastor, stunned the Denomination. But the shock of the situation, and the churches irresponsible reaction, is beside the point. After all these years, Dr. Ford’s views are still correct. The facts have not changed in the slightest.
People were only shocked at Dr. Ford’s conclusion about the IJ because the White Estate and the Review had indoctrinated generations into the fraud of Traditional Adventism. They could not imagine that what they had been taught all these years could be wrong. So most all reacted in horror to Dr. Ford’s (correct) repudiation of the IJ. It seemed impossible.
What all SDA’s had been taught, and what all assumed was true, having the full support of Ellen White and the Bible, was not true. The entire church had been hoodwinked by the White Estate and the Review into embracing serious historical and doctrinal myths.
The fact of the matter is that neither Ellen White, nor Uriah Smith, nor anyone in Battle Creek, ever viewed the IJ the way all were taught in Takoma Park. It never happened.
Not one 19th century SDA, including Ellen White, ever taught “the hour of his Judgment has come” in Rev 14: 7 was the IJ. It never happened; even though this is what all SDA’s thought in 1980 and most all still think today. The incompetent and dishonest leaders were so wrong about this point, that they confused the whole church, and then refused to face up to their great error and repent.
The Pioneers NEVER interpreted this Judgment pillar as the IJ. Never. So why did the White Estate say otherwise? Because they are foolish and dishonest Judaizers, legalists, drunk with religious power and authority, so much so that they led the Denomination into delusion, division, and self-destruction. Arthur White is the greatest of fools, and so too anyone that defend this corrupt and incompetent institution.
A fact of history is a fact of history. But yet those at Glacier View were blind to this point that proved them wrong. There is no IJ pillar. It has turned out to be a false doctrine and a false pillar, promoted by those with a false Gospel.
But who knew this in 1980?
Dr. Ford was ahead of his time, and far ahead of his foolish peers that did not understand either church history or the Gospel correctly.
Although the truth discovered by Dr. Ford seemed absurd and impossible, even heretical, truth is truth. But here is where tradition and the facts clash. After all, everyone “knew” that the IJ was a great Pillar within the Three Angels Message, one that could never be questioned or removed. To do so, was to repudiate Ellen White and Adventism. Blah, blah, blah…
Based on SDA tradition, Dr. Ford was wrong. But based on the facts, he was correct. He is still correct. Ellen White does not support TA or what happened at Glacier View.
Glacier View was based on many false theological and historical assumptions. It was not based on the facts of scripture or church history. It is time for the SDA’s stop embracing so many false assumptions about Dr. Ford, Ellen White and church doctrine. The facts are no longer hidden and there is nowhere for the dishonest TSDA’s to hide.
Justice demands that Glacier View must be repealed. The great error that took place in 1980 must be corrected and made right or the SDA church is doomed.
Dublin quoted and then said: Jer. 4:22 “For My people are foolish, They know Me not; They are stupid children And have no understanding. They are shrewd to do evil, But to do good they do not know.”
Dublin said: **This cannot be said of the SDA scholars. There is abundant scholarly literature showing honest and insightful knowledge of Bible truth.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. So the SDA scholars are honest and true? Who told you this? They did? Haven’t you heard this joke? The only honest SDA scholar is a retired one!
The SDA’s don’t have any “honest” scholars after they removed Dr. Ford. Even Raymond Cottrell, a long time SDA scholar embraced Dr. Ford’s views before he died, and so too have legions of scholars and former SDA’s pastors. And so too any that are honest and free to speak the truth.
Most all SDA pastors and teachers know that the SDA church teaches much false doctrine, but they also know that if they want to keep their jobs, they will play along. So they play along, until they get tired of all the false doctrine, and then trash Adventism as they leave. Richard Fredericks is a good example.
Such pretending is dishonest and outrageous. There can be no pretending about the Gospel or the teachings of Jesus. The SDA’s need to repent and become honest. But the TSDA’s are foolishly blocking the way.
In fact, if the SDA’s had any honest scholars or pastors, they would have long ago sent them online to prove that Traditional Adventism is true and the Glacier View was the will of God. But not only have they all run from any public discussion of the issues, the church leaders have tried to censor and stop Adventist Reform. What kind of experts run away?
Dr. Ford is an honest scholar. He has not run away. He has answered all the questions and defended his views with mountains of evidence.
So whenever you find this “honest” TSDA scholar, you send him to me and I will be happy to cross-examine any of them for all to see, exposing their foolish false doctrine with a smile. Then we will see how much “insight” and knowledge they really have?
But I won’t hold my breath. No IJ champion will show up ever since the great Goldstein was so easily defeated. The TSDA’s know they cannot win such a contest. That is why they all run away…
Dublin said: And “doing good to others?” The Adventist church does much good in their mission work, hospitals, schools and churches.
Tom said: Ha! So you think the SDA’s good deeds have impressed heaven?
The Laodicean Message has judged the good deeds of the SDA’s as worthless. They are so bad in fact, that this passage actually says that they make Jesus vomit.
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Today, anyone that understands the Gospel correctly, and knows how to read the Bible, will also be sickened by the many false SDA doctrines, like tithe and the IJ, just to mention two, as well as by their worthless deeds and arrogant attitude.
Realty Check: What good is an education system that is so dishonest, that they throw out their top scholar and theologian, Dr. Ford, for telling the truth?
Rather then follow the unfolding path of biblical knowledge, the SDA’s are trying to force everyone to think as if the world was stuck in 1950, when the church had every point correct, and there were few who complained.
Today, their educational system is a farce, and the world knows it. Censorship, Dishonesty, and Propaganda should not be the basis for any Christian educational system, and the SDA’s should be ashamed of themselves for what they have done.
What about the hospitals? Do the SDA’s teach and live the Health Message? Hardly. Most of the members are out of shape, and few have any idea how to eat.
Simply put, there is no Health Message any more in the SDA church, and there has not been for many decades. Which is why the SDA Health Magazine is essentially bankrupt. It used to be the #1 Health Magazine in the County, but now it is in last place, worthless and irrelevant.
As for missionaries, what is the point? Those that teach a false Gospel need to repent, not brag about their confused exploits. In hindsight, many missionaries took advantage of the people; which is why there is far more anger against the missionaries in these foreign countries than there is praise.
The SDA church needs to repent, reform, and re-organize. This is their only hope. They have almost no doctrines correct, even as their infrastructure is outdated and crumbling, and the vast majority speaks badly about them. The preset situation is not sustainable or correct.
Dublin quoted Tom Norris who said: “How can it be wrong to label a person a fool when this is what the Bible does? This is what Jesus does, and so too Paul? “
Dublin then said: **The Bible uses the word “fool” usually to describe those who refuse to believe, and even oppose the gospel. By definition, they are not “brothers.”
Tom said: BINGO! This is what I am saying about Hub the foolish. The TSDA’s are GREAT FOOLS because they refuse to repent of their false Gospel. They are fighting against the Gospel, and against Ellen White and against Three Angels Messages. We are not brothers, but theological enemies.
So I say to any SDA that embraces the IJ and tithe, and cheers for Glacier View: You “foolish SDA.”
Paul would say the same thing to the SDA’s and so too Jesus, who is demanding that they also repent in the real Pre Advent Judgment of the LM. Which means, that the TSDA’s are also wrong about Matt 5: 22. Jesus does not teach it wrong to insult the TSDA’s with the well-deserved term of fool. They are great and “wretched” fools for all to see.
Let all TSDA’s read about themselves in Galatians and repent!
Paul said:
Gal. 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal. 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Tom Norris says: You “foolish” TSDA’s! Why do you nullify the Gospel, teaching there is an IJ, to see if your law keeping is acceptable to God? Are you so foolish to think your sanctification is salvific?
Are you so foolish as to embrace the Old Covenant Sabbath and tithing instead of the New Covenant doctrines that Jesus teaches?
Are you so foolish as to think that law keeping is salvific?
Are you so foolish as to persecute and exile those that understand the Word and preach the Gospel correctly?
Woe are the SDA’s if they do not repent and reform!
Woe to the SDA’s if they do not officially and publicly repent for Glacier View and apologize to Dr. Ford and all those who were persecuted for the Gospel.
Dublin said: Jesus did use strong language, like “hypocrites” to expose the Pharisees, but He did so with tears, and only on rare occasions, not constantly.
Tom said: Ha! So when you see something you don’t like in the Bible, it is rare and should be discounted? But yet, even though the IJ is so “rare” and hard to prove from the Bible, it has nonetheless become a great doctrine that all must embrace? Why the difference?
This is too funny, and once again shows that the TSDA’s do not respect the Word. They see it as their play toy to do with it what they want. Both their logic and their hermeneutics are absurd, dishonest, and unprofessional. They have fallen from grace until they repent.
For the record, Jesus did not spare the insults as you claim, and neither did Paul or John. Insulting the enemies of the Gospel is normative and routine in the NT.
The fact that you think otherwise helps explain why the foolish TSDA’s so easily get their feeling hurt. But that is the point with such shocking, targeted, language. It is meant to wake up those in danger, even as it re-enforces the correct path for those watching.
So I say again to all the TSDA’s; Stop being so foolish and repent!
D quoted Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
D said: **This is not talking about a brother, but on those who refused to believe.
Tom said: WRONG! Jesus was speaking to his fellow Jews, his brothers in the faith of Judaism. He was also speaking about any downstream that refuse to honestly understand his words, like all the TSDA’s.
D quoted Luke 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’
D said: **This man had no concern for eternal salvation. He was not a brother, but rather an “idolater” in worshiping material things.
Tom said: Jesus was teaching about the evil of greed to his fellow Jews and to all that would follow him through out the long ages of history. These words are for the church.
Jesus taught about a “rich man” who had spent his entire life acquiring wealth and possessions, but he made no time for religion, and thus he lost his soul.
Jesus was warning his followers to beware of greed. It leads to great foolishness.
Luke 12:15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.”
Luke 12:16 And He told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man was very productive.
Luke 12:17 “And he began reasoning to himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?’
Luke 12:18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.
Luke 12:19 ‘And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry.”’
Luke 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’
Luke 12:21 “So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”
Jesus teaches that all men are “fools” if they forget how short life is, and if they allow the pursuit of riches to eclipse the Gospel. And so too are the $multi- billion dollar SDA church if they do not repent of their foolish and false doctrines.
The SDA church is worth about 25 BILLION dollars. They are very rich. But they are nonetheless very foolish not to understand that they are blind, naked, and bankrupt in the eyes of Heaven. Foolish SDA’s. So very foolish.
D quoted: Luke 24:25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
D said: **Actually, one who is “slow of heart to believe” is an unbeliever, and will believe only when he is forced to believe by events. He is not a brother.
Tom said: Don’t you know that these words of Jesus were directed to his disciples? To his Jewish brothers in the Gospel? He was not speaking to “unbelievers" as you claim. You need to stop being so foolish and so sloppy with the Word.
The context makes it perfectly clear who these people were that Jesus insulted. But the TSDA’s often ignore the context because of their dishonest proof texting ways. In other words, they will make the text say what they want, - even when it says the opposite. No wonder their doctrines make no sense.
Even after Jesus called them “fools” he went on with these disciples, with these Jewish "brothers," to stay and eat with them. Proving that God loves those whom he calls fools.
Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Luke 24:28 And they approached the village where they were going, and He acted as though He were going farther.
Luke 24:29 But they urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them.
Luke 24:30 When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them.
Luke 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight.
Luke 24:32 They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”
So once again, a proper readying of the passage disproves your interpretation of Matt 5: 22, as well as this double-talk about Jesus calling only “unbelievers” fools. Jesus is clearly calling his own brothers, his own followers and disciples, “fools.” This is what this text says and there is no use in pretending otherwise.
Learn how to read the NT without all this careless twisting of the meaning. Repent of your foolish ways.
D quoted: 1Cor. 15:36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
D said: **In context, Paul is addressing those who refuse to believe, raising impossible questions.
Tom said: Ha! Wrong again! The TSDA’s have a difficult time when it comes to the context of any Bible passage. They need to go to Dr. Ford and learn proper, Protestant Hermeneutics, as well as the Gospel.
Paul is clearly addressing the Corinthian Church in this letter to the Corinthians. He is not addressing unbelievers and it is absurd to make such a claim. Here is the proof:
1Cor. 1:1 Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Cor. 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1Cor. 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why in the world would anyone pretend that Paul was writing to unbelievers? Oh! I know. Because the TSDA’s are trying to support their false view of Matt 5: 22. And this requires that numerous other verses must also be taken out of context, interpreted falsely in order to defend error. All of this just to pretend that the TSDA’s are not great fools. Too bad it won’t work. They are still great fools that pretend they know the Bible better then anyone else.
Just read the passage and understand that Paul is writing and speaking to the church. He is telling them to stop sinning and get serious about the Gospel. He was ashamed at some of their behavior, as well as those that openly doubted the resurrection.
1Cor. 15:34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
1Cor. 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”
1Cor. 15:36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
1Cor. 15:37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body, which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
1Cor. 15:38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
So Paul is calling “some” of the Christians in Corinth “fools.” Why try and refute what is so clear?
D quoted: 1Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
D said:**In context, Paul is showing that worldly philosophy that refuses to believe in God is foolishness. To be a Christian was foolishness to worldly philosophers but wisdom in the eyes of God.
Tom said: You should add the next verse.
1Cor. 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.
Any that ignore or refuse the Gospel are foolish in the eyes of heaven. This includes the SDA’s, which is why I applied the term to Hub and now to you.
D said: **Jesus said that to call a brother a fool was wrong (Matthew 5:22). Jesus and Paul have repeatedly called upon church members to “love one another.” Jesus and Paul did not call Christian believers “fools.
Tom said: Jesus did not teach what you claim, nor did Paul hold back from blasting those in the church that promoted a false Gospel.
Jesus called his disciples “foolish” and “slow” on the road to Emmaus, and Paul called his fellow apostles, and the Galatian church “foolish” and deceived. There are many passages that disprove your foolish position. If you do not repent, and start reading the Bible with more honesty, respect and care, you will never be able to understand the Gospel. You will remain a damned fool trying to pass the IJ.
D said: **If you follow Paul and Jesus’ example you will not call a fellow believer a fool, even if he disagrees. And Jesus on several occasions did disagree with certain of his disciples, but he did not call them fools.
Tom said: Wrong. We have already seen a number of texts that disprove your foolish view. Sorry. You are wrong. Deal with it like a wise man and repent, not like a fool, who thinks he is right when he is not even close.
In Galatians, the book that overturns the false, SDA Gospel, Paul calls the Galatian Church “foolish” -twice, even as this term is used in his other writings and that of the other apostles.
D said: **The Galatians had turned away from the gospel of Jesus Christ, and returned to Jewish customs and the ceremonial law. This was a denial of Christ, and would lead them to lose their souls.
Tom said: The Galatians were famous for “distorting” the Gospel. They became confused about the law and the Gospel, blending the two together instead of separating and subordinating the law to the Gospel. Thus Paul condemned these Judaizers because they added obedience and Sanctification to the doctrine of JBF alone, thus creating a false and incorrect Gospel.
Luther used the book of Galatians to help expose the false Gospel of the RCC, even as E J Waggoner did the same thing in 1888 for the legalistic and foolish SDA’s. Waggoner tried to show that Uriah Smith’s Gospel was very wrong. And so too his view about the Two Covenants.
But even with the support of Ellen White, 19th century Gospel Reform failed and the Battle Creek denomination self-destructed and the SDA’s almost destroyed. Then the Takoma Park leaders hid this history so that they could go one a repeat the same mistakes as Uriah Smith in the 20th century. With the same tragic results; which was the repudiation of Gospel Reform at Glacier View in 1980, and the demise of the Three Angels and the ruin of Ellen White.
Today, it is clear that the modern TSDA’s are as Old Covenant minded, as were the stubborn fools in Galatia, Rome, or Battle Creek. The have embraced one false doctrine after another, with the net effect that they have developed a “wretched” and worthless enterprise that features a false Gospel, a ruined prophet, and an absurd and impossible eschatology.
Most all that the TSDA’s teach must be condemned and repudiated by those that understand the genuine Gospel.
D said: Paul used strong language, but at this point they were no longer “brothers.” Even at that Paul carried on an extensive dialog with them, calling them in love to return to the gospel.
Tom said: Wrong. Even though Paul was still the Jewish/ Christian brother of Peter, James and Barnabus, he still called them foolish, and condemned them for their false Gospel. He dared them to stand up to his rebuke, and they backed down because they knew they were wrong.
Thus we see no push back from those who had been caught with false doctrine. In fact, Peter writes warmly of Paul and defends his sometime hard to understand teachings as correct.
2Pet. 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
2Pet. 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
2Pet. 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, bin which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pet. 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
The fact of the matter is that Paul called the Galatian Church a bunch of fools and so too some in the Corinthian Church. This was not wrong or unnecessary. You are being very foolish to think otherwise.
Who has “bewitched” you? Who has taught you so much false doctrine and confusion?
D quoted: Eph. 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
D said: **Paul did not call them foolish, but rather warned them against being foolish. He strongly taught them to leave off the old sins of the worldly people around them, and what they themselves used to do. He called them to “walk circumspectly” according to the will of God.
Tom said: Again, Paul is writing to the Christian Church here. He is warning them to understand the teachings of Jesus, and be wise men, not foolish. Which also means that any who do not follow Jesus teachings, are fools.
Eph. 5:15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,
Eph. 5:16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.
Eph. 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
D quoted 2Tim. 2:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
D said: **Tom, you should be interested in this. Paul is not calling anyone a fool, but advising against foolish speculations, which were apparently a problem at that time.
Tom said: Paul is calling anyone a fool that gets into “foolish and ignorant speculations.” Today, this would include the age of the earth. This is a wildly speculative point. It is the Gospel that saves, nothing else. Those who make doctrine out of presumption, or geology, and declare that one must embrace a 6,000-year model are being very foolish.
D quoted Titus 3:3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
D said: **This uses the word “foolish” but does NOT call any one a “fool.” I think you would agree that anyone who did what the verse says, is a fool (with cause).
Tom said: Who taught you how to read? Can you not see that Paul has called himself a fool in this passage? And so too all that were ignorant of the Gospel. How can you not see that?
D quoted Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
D then said: **See under 2 Tim 2:23 above.
Tom said: The SDA’s wasted a number of generations with their foolish discussions about the wedding ring and other worthless points. The problem with the SDA’s is that they don’t know how to deal with the great and important issues. Which they cover up, hide, and censor. Then they try to mask what they have done with a lot of useless focus on behavior and giving. This is all worthless and very foolish.
D quoted James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
D then said: **A person who believes in “cheap grace” is denying Christ. He is a fool “with cause.”
Tom said: Those who misunderstand the Gospel, refusing to believe, are correctly considered fools by heaven, Jesus, and the apostles. This verse once again shows an apostle calling someone a “fool.” This was supposed to be a sin, but yet it is being done all over the NT by the apostles. Why? Because it is not a sin. Only a fool would say such a thing!
Jesus and the apostles routinely called those that misunderstood, distorted, or rejected the Gospel,- "fools." Which is why Tom Norris correctly called Hub the foolish a fool. This is the proper protocol for Gospel Reform.
Those who believe in hard, Old Covenant grace, like the TSDA’s, are great fools. Unless they repent and embrace the one and only Protestant Gospel, they are doomed.
D quoted 1Pet. 2:15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
D then said: **Paul is here teaching that we must be good citizens. We must keep the laws of the state “under God” meaning that we “ought to obey God rather than man.” This is the will of God. By so doing the “ignorant” opposers of the Gospel are silenced.
Tom said: Peter, not Paul, is also making the point that any who attack the Gospel are fools. This point supports my use of the term, because Hub and all the TSDA’s are great Judaizers. They are very foolish critics of the genuine Gospel.
So we can see that it is hardly wrong to use the term foolish or the word fool. Which means that it was very foolish of Hub to try and use Mat 5: 22 to defend his errors. Anyone that embraces the false Gospel of the Galatians is a great fool, even a condemned one.
D said: **The false gospel of the Galatians was to return to the ceremonial law, circumcision, and rituals. It was to deny what Christ had done on the cross.
Tom said: The false Gospel of the Galatians made obedience to the Moral law part of the Gospel formula. The error of the Galatians, and then the RCC, and then the SDA’s, etc, is to include our Sanctification as part of the Gospel “process” whereby we might be saved. This is a very false and distorted Gospel.
This is why the definition of the Protestant Gospel featured the separation of the law from the Gospel, which is the opposite of the Galatian error.
The Advent Movement is a Protestant Paradigm. Therefore, it must have a Protestant Gospel; the same one as Paul, not the same one as Peter, James, and the Galatian church.
D said: Paul plainly said this was foolish, but it was not an insult. He patiently and clearly and lovingly taught them what was right.
Tom said: Paul insulted the Judaizers every chance he had, even as he blasted the leading apostles, in public, for all to see. Who are you trying to kid here? With red face and blood pressure rising, Paul loudly condemned them to hell, and so too their guardian angels should they dare try to interfere.
Oh Foolish TSDA’s, when will you learn to read the Bible honestly and for good purpose? You are making fools out of your cause, and deservedly so. It is sad to see, but necessary.
D said: Tom, I have taken time to read every verse, and most of them in context. I would hope that you will do the same before you present another long list of verses. I have a concordance too, and know how easy it is to just develop a list of verses. So, please be sure each verse applies to the issue at hand.
Tom said: I think you wasted your time. You have no idea how to read the Bible, much less understand the teachings of Jesus.
Your position about the use of the word fool is as hopeless as it is foolish. You and Hub, and all the TSDA’s remain very confused and wrong about the Gospel.
Those who misunderstand the Gospel, reading the Bible only to defend their false doctrines, will find little that disagrees with their views. Such defensive and self-serving Bible Study, is worthless. The outcome is assured, because they will twist the Word to fit their views, ignoring what they don’t like. This is what you have foolishly done here, but to no avail.
The TSDA’s are great fools.
The TSDA's are the modern day Circumcision Party. Their theology mimics the foolish; Old Covenant minded Galatians as well as following the errors of Uriah Smith. Thus Paul would curse the TSDA’s and so too would Luther, even as heaven considers them great fools.
No amount of double-talk about Matt 5: 22 is going to defend the false Gospel of the TSDA’s. No amount of pretending that their views are as good as anyone else’s will work.
The Gospel is not up for debate. It is not a he said she said doctrine. There is only one Gospel, and the TSDA’s do not have it. They have the distorted Gospel of Peter, James, and the Circumcision Party.
Adventist Reform stands for the genuine Gospel of Jesus and Paul, as well as that of Luther, Dr. Ford and the post 1888 Ellen White. It repudiates the false Gospel of the Galatians, Roman Catholics, and of the Battle Creek SDA’s, led by Uriah Smith, and the Takoma Park SDA’s, led by the White Estate.
Only those that repent and embrace the true Gospel are wise. Those that refuse to repent, and continue to stubbornly embrace a false Gospel, are being very foolish and suicidal. They have forfeited Eternal Life.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
The genuine Gospel is amazing. Too bad so few understand it.
I suggest that the SDA’s stop pretending they have found the Gospel, and go out and secure the real doctrine. There is a man by the name of Desmond Ford that can explain it to them.
If you want to continue to try and defend TA, I suggest that you go to the proper thread, read what has been posted, and then do your best. But understand that many others, like Hub the Foolish, have tried to defend Tithe, and the IJ, etc., but they have ALL failed to make their case. And you will do no better, as evidenced by your foolish misunderstanding of Matt 5:22.
It is time for the SDA’s, no matter what side of the debate they find themselves, to get serious about the issues. (This includes Hub the Foolish).
It is too late to go backwards, like the TSDA’s urge, nor is the status quo, with its division and doctrinal error, sustainable. The Adventist church must go forward, always remaining true to its eschatological mission, and always staying within the confines of the Three Angels Messages.
All the theological debates, from 1844, to 1888 and 1980 must be fully resolved. Why? So that the church can unite and go forward.
The church should stop their marketing efforts for new converts, and focus on correcting its errors and formulating the final Gospel message that will fulfill the destiny of the Advent Movement.
Today the world is closer than ever to the Apocalypse. Many sense this tense situation, and want answers about how the world will end. This is a great opportunity for Adventism, if they will only wake up and seize it. This is their time to rise and shine. This is why they exist; to prepare the church for the great tribulation, and the Day of Judgment, which follows.
The Advent Movement of the 21st century is being held hostage to the errors, myths, and corruption of the 3rd Angels Message. This is a great mistake.
Now is the time when the church needs to unite on the fundamentals of the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages and move forward to the 4th and final Message of Rev 18. Such a paradigm shift is not optional.
Adventism must repent of its errors and go forward if it is to survive and do its duty.
It is time.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (12-28-10 3:41 pm)
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